The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*

[Renoard]

I certainly took Lews Therin's comment to mean that he had promised Casuane as Rand. Lews Therin seemed to be getting more sane and more in control as they merged. It certainly seemed that Rand was Rand at all by the end of his crisis. He seems to be more like Mat now an amalgum of all the past lives of "the Dragon". Sane technically, perhaps, but not very human. That's my take.

[mtbikemom]

Or maybe more human, the more he accepts it, the less he fights it.  I wouldn't have gone that way, but this is Mr. Jordan's world, not mine, and I relish the surprises.

I wonder if this is another example of things Brandon would not have chosen to write, as I mentioned before, if he were the one choosing everything in this project.  I know one other "for sure": the spanking scene.  Brandon did not care for that particular plot variant, but RJ was very clear about it in his notes.   Brandon just does not like Cadsuane at all, anyway, he says.   That's too bad, really, because he usually does so well with strong female characters and, to me, Cadsuane is potentially one of the best.  I wish I had asked Harriet if she agreed with me, but I didn't want to start a minor fight.  I think Harriet might have, with a characteristic twinkle in her eye, said something like, "They are all terrible and wonderful." 

[Cynewulf]

 Brandon just does not like Cadsuane at all, anyway, he says.   That's too bad, really, because he usually does so well with strong female characters and, to me, Cadsuane is potentially one of the best.  I wish I had asked Harriet if she agreed with me, but I didn't want to start a minor fight.  I think Harriet might have, with a characteristic twinkle in her eye, said something like, "They are all terrible and wonderful." 

Has he really stated that he does not like Cadsuane? If so, that shows a surprising lack of professionalism. He should keep such thoughts to himself. She is one of the most important characters in the story, she is marvellously characterised, and RJ obviously cherished her, comparing her with the stern aunt we all have. I do not want to see doubts being cast on her characterisation in the final three books simply because Sanderson "does not like" her. Writing TWoT, it is Sanderson's job to like her.

And what the hell is there not to like?

[mtbikemom]

  To be more precise, Brandon said, when asked who is his least favorite character to write, "Cadsuane."  He said it quite a few times on tour, actually.  There may have been others he mentioned, but this is the one that kind of jolted me because I have always liked her and wanted more of her sometimes, not less.  Especially with Verin and Moiraine out of the picture for now.  That is probably why RJ had lots of Cadsuane in his notes interacting in most/all of the pivotal scenes with Rand.  He liked her as much as we do and I think Harriet does, too, though I chickened out when I had the chance to ask her directly, sitting right next to Brandon as she was.

 I think Brandon is just being candid and honest, not unprofessional.  It's not like he would have brought it up outside the context of tour questioning and I imagine her spanking episode has much to do with Brandon's dislike.  It was a scene that would never have come out of his head, I think, and disturbed him, so she disturbed him.  My guess.

I totally agree with you, Cyn.  What is not to like?

[Patriotic Kaz]

Plenty.... first of she is ungodly arrogant...but i should stop this here before i go on a rant (to be clear i don't dislike her but she frustrates me constantly) and i don't have an aunt that behaves in a fashion like Cadsuane.

[Eerongal]

Plenty.... first of she is ungodly arrogant...

This.

Honestly, I'm right there with brandon, Cadsuane is my least favorite character of them all. She's way too epically arrogant for the position (character-wise, not her position in the story) she occupies.

I think she's intended to be a "wise, but stern" figure to guide rand, but that's not at all how she comes off to me. Moiraine did an infinitely better job of filling this role IMO.

Of course, this is all my opinion, and anyone who wants to is obviously allowed to enjoy her character. I just, in the scheme of things, do not.


Edit: to clarify a bit more, I actually liked her earlier on, when she was reserved and meticulous, but began to dislike her more and more as she became more of "Pshaw! Now you listen to granny cadsuane, you lil' whipper snapper!!"

[mtbikemom]

I wonder if Brandon's opinion of Cadsuane has something to do with the fact that he knows everything in "the notes" about her.  Maybe there's something coming that makes her even more unappealing to him. 

Yeah, all that pshaw stuff did get irritating, as did all the braid-pulling, gown-smoothing and arm-folding-under-breasts, but I still like her and think her exasperation was merited by Rand's behavior.  Hoping things smooth out between them.  I think I expect her to largely disappear, having played her most important part in Min's viewings.  The laugh and cry thing.  I can't remember, did he cry yet?

[Pygmalion]

Cadsuane is bloody irritating... but she's supposed to be, so I deal.

I love that Rand and Lews Therin have finally... merged more. (I guess that's the right word.) The whole concept there of being someone from the past, of being the same person, and yet not, over and over again, is just fascinating.

Also, Verin is my hero. 'Nuff said.

[Cynewulf]

I think most people who dislike Cadsuane do so for the wrong reasons. I feel that most who dislike her are young males who object to the fact that a relatively minor character fails to worship the hero of the story. For many readers, especially young ones, there often occurs a form of projection of themselves onto the protagonist. I think some feel personally offended that Cadsuane does not bow down to do Rand's wishes. And frankly, the way Rand has been behaving since Dumai's Wells, who can blame her for taking him to task.

Cadsuane has certainly been far more effective in working with Rand than Moiraine ever was. Moiraine's handling of Rand is a complete disaster. For the first four and a half books, she was constantly bungling the way she handled the Emonds Fielders. She misunderstood how to deal with Rand, and tried to force Rand into her own horribly arbitrary and erroneous interpretations of the Kareathon Cycle. If Rand had actually taken her advice, the Last Battle would already be lost. I really do not understand why so many people hold Moiraine in such high regard. She is certainly a good character and it will undoubtedly be good to have her back, but her accomplishments have for the most part been luck and have occured despite Moiraine's efforts rather than due to them. Until the episode with the Domination Band, Cadsuane was having a very good influence on Rand - and she handled him exactly right.

[douglas]

I really do not understand why so many people hold Moiraine in such high regard

At least for me, it's because she actually managed to earn Rand's trust, and did so by proving to him that she deserved it and that she was trying to help him rather than control and manipulate him.  When people talk about Moiraine as a highly respected and liked character that they really want back, I believe they are usually talking about Moiraine as she was between her trip to Rhuidean and her death.  In that interval she dealt with Rand perfectly and with none of the undeserved arrogance that makes most Aes Sedai act like idiots.

[Eerongal]

I think most people who dislike Cadsuane do so for the wrong reasons. I feel that most who dislike her are young males who object to the fact that a relatively minor character fails to worship the hero of the story. For many readers, especially young ones, there often occurs a form of projection of themselves onto the protagonist. I think some feel personally offended that Cadsuane does not bow down to do Rand's wishes. And frankly, the way Rand has been behaving since Dumai's Wells, who can blame her for taking him to task.

That's a rather dangerous over generalization, there, chief, that could start flames, i'd be careful.  (note: i don't care, just sayin')

Also: Just about every single woman I know (IRL) who reads wheel of time hate Cadsuane far more than even I do, so from my personal wealth of data on the situation, it's also quite wrong. Obviously, everyone allowed to like who they like, but the majority of people I know do NOT like her.

I really do not understand why so many people hold Moiraine in such high regard

At least for me, it's because she actually managed to earn Rand's trust, and did so by proving to him that she deserved it and that she was trying to help him rather than control and manipulate him.  When people talk about Moiraine as a highly respected and liked character that they really want back, I believe they are usually talking about Moiraine as she was between her trip to Rhuidean and her death.  In that interval she dealt with Rand perfectly and with none of the undeserved arrogance that makes most Aes Sedai act like idiots.

^this sums my feelings up exactly^

[Pygmalion]

Yeah... I don't think being young, single, male or female really has anything to do with whether or not one likes Cadsuane.

I understand her perspective, but that doesn't make her less annoying. But I honestly think it's a mark of great writing that I can be really truly irritated by a fictional character.

And I agree with Douglas that Moiraine managed to gain Rand's trust. Nothing about Cadsuane or her behavior would make me trust her... she asks so much of Rand, but she gives nothing in return.

Also, and I forgot to mention this earlier: how about Elaida? I totally did a "whoop" when she got captured by the Seanchan. Totally served her smug little self right. 

[Comfortable Madness]

Cadsuane is annoying because she, like most other Aes Sedai, think that Rand needs to be controlled or guided by them. The problem is none of them is omniscient. Not even close. They've continued only to mess things up worse for Rand. Does he need help or some advice? Yep. Sure does. But he doesn't need a bunch of schemers and manipulaters trying to manipulate him into doing what they think is right? Bottom line it's hella-annoying that they all think they KNOW better than he does. They don't. Even Egwene is all panicky because "the Dragon Reborn is out there uncontrolled". Bad Egwene! He's the prophesied savior, a human being, not some wild animal.


I'm with douglas and Eerongal on the whole Moiraine issue. She is held in high regard because Rand came to trust her.

[melbatoast]

I think most people dislike Cadsuane because she's annoying. She's supposed to be some kind of super-Aes Sedai but she hasn't done anything yet. Except be super annoying.

I understand her perspective, but that doesn't make her less annoying. But I honestly think it's a mark of great writing that I can be really truly irritated by a fictional character.

^Agree.

[Eerongal]

Also, and I forgot to mention this earlier: how about Elaida? I totally did a "whoop" when she got captured by the Seanchan. Totally served her smug little self right. 

Oh, heck yeah. Best part of the book. Period. I was hoping for Elaida's fall for quite some time, couldn't come fast enough.