Sept. 14 - Recovering Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 2 Violence, M. Language

[Recovering_Cynic]

Well here it is:  Spoiler.  The main character from Ch. 1 didn't die! 

Yay!

If any of you are reviewing this and want a copy of Ch. 1, let me know, and I'll send it out.

[westwriter]

Well, he didn't die, but I kinda wish he had.  lol  As I said after chapter one, I want to root for the main character.  Even an anti-hero is great reading for me.  This guy doesn't make me want to root for him.  I know he was wronged, but it seems he made some deals in order to exact his revenge and those deals cost him his humanity.  I realize there has to be a cost, but I don't like this guy.  If he is the main character, I'm emotionally invested, but invested in the wrong direction.   I, personally, need something to get me on his side, and his little code he keeps repeating isn't enough.
i thought it was a smooth read and I had no problems understanding the action.  It was well written.  My only lament is due to my personal taste, so well done!

[Recovering_Cynic]

Thank you for the feedback, but I had some questions about what you said here:

I know he was wronged, but it seems he made some deals in order to exact his revenge and those deals cost him his humanity.  I realize there has to be a cost, but I don't like this guy.  If he is the main character, I'm emotionally invested, but invested in the wrong direction.   I, personally, need something to get me on his side, and his little code he keeps repeating isn't enough.

I guess my questions are as follows:

1) Would this chapter have made you stop reading or would you have given the book another chapter or two?

2) If you found out later on that the MC hadn't made any "deals", but that everything he has become is a result of choices not his own, would that help? 

3) *small spoiler* One of the story themes is that of redemption.  The MC wants his revenge, but at the same time is horrified by what he has become, what he has been made.  The MC doesn't want to be what he is, and the story is for a large part, the MC struggling for his own humanity.  Would knowing that help?  How soon would you need to know that in order to give the book a chance?

Thanks for reading and for your honest opinions

[Frog]

Well here it is:  Spoiler.  The main character from Ch. 1 didn't die! 

Boo!!!

Thoughts while Reading:

"It was time to pay the piper"

This phrase refers directly to the legend of a piper taking children in payment for riding a city of rats. It is colloquial enough to make me wonder if it fits in your world.

Who is Bathsin? Should we know?

Intro goes a little long, esp since we get a lot of info just in the dialogue. Go through and get rid of some of the repetiveness; anything in the intro you explain with dialogue.

I said act pompous, not arrogant.

  What's the difference?

Overall impression:
Well, this chp is pretty short, so I don't have much to say other than I'm waiting. Just like I had to foreshadow demons in my fluffy white-washed world, you are going to have to foreshadow the bunnies in yours and soon. Nothing really wrong with these bits, but I say you had maybe 2 more chps to give me someone else to root for because at this point, for me, it is not going to be your MC.

You said somewhere that they were using The Count of Monte Cristo as part of your inspiration. I've only seen the movie, but I loved it and I can tell you some of the things they did there that you might want to consider was that they made you love the MC (I mean really feel for him and see the good in his character) at the beginning, and then surrounded him with people trying to hold him to higher standard when he was at his blackest (the priest, his servant, his GF) and they led to his redemption in the end (yay!). So if you had given me more reason to love your MC at the beginning (he starts out a bit pathetic and only midly interested in his family-or a least his wife) or some more of his journey to get to this point, I might have given him  some more leway now, but as it stands,  I need someone else I can root for from the beginning to stand against him or play off him as a sidkick (or love interest if you must) until our MC catches up. At least those are some suggestions if you need them. You may have something even better planed.

And on your last question, I don't feel at all that our MC is horrified by what he has become, at least not at this point. He smiles and calls things 'fun' a bit too much. Maybe if I knew a bit more about this Bathsin concept...

So chps are fine and I would keep reading, but you're on thin ice so it all depends on what you do with your next chps.

[Jexral]

First off, I really like this story so far.  I'm really curious about what happened to this character we saw in chapter one to make him change so much.  I'm quite interested to see where you take it from here.

Death is necessary but not glorious, the innocent do not die unless they must, and I do not kill children.

I kind of disliked this.  I think it should be more concise, and more eloquent, concision being the more important part, I think.

Overall, I have few complaints about it, a few grammatical inaccuracies or examples of (in my opinion) poor word choice, but the characters are interesting, and the plot seems strong.  I was kind of sad when you killed Charles, though... lol.  I thought he would be an interesting character to learn about.  <grin> 

[Recovering_Cynic]

Hey Jex!  Glad to know you are enjoying the story, but I was wondering if you thought the main character needed to be more sympathetic as well?  I have some ideas on how I could go about doing that (some remorse after his homicidal rage, possibly a lead up chapter detailing his exile), and I can see how softening him up a bit would appeal to a wider audience.

What is your take?  Does he need to be more sympathetic?

[westwriter]

I like the action and the ideas in your story, so I would definitely give it a chapter or two.  Actually, I'll read it all, but if I bought this in the store I would give you a couple more chapters.
Frog voiced my points much more eloquently.  If he is distraught by what he has become, I want to know more about where he was before he began his descent.  I also want to know that he wants to get back up.  It seems from this chapter that he is enjoying the descent too much.
As i said:  just my personal opinion.  I don't require fluffy bunnies and pure sunshine.  Just a character I can identify with.  If this guy is truly wanting to change what his thirst for revenge has made him become, then show some remorse at all the killing instead of relishing the upcoming hunt for another person to kill.

[Frog]

Yeah, the bunnies were an over the top metaphor to make a point. Not that I don't like bunnies, but they wouldn't fit the tone of this book so far and it all needs to be believable, first and foremost. Oh, and as much as I want to love your character at the beginning and see more depth to him then we have now, I would be careful about showing too much remorse by way of internal thought at this particular point. Much easier to forgive/understand a character that commits a crime out of ignorance, passion or absence of taught/base morality, but it's harder in a character that you are firmly shown should know better and then have him turn around and commit a crime just because or for some unbalanced reason that he is continually trying to justify to himself. At least that is my take on it.

[Recovering_Cynic]

I was thinking along the same lines Frog and Greg.  I thought about inserting a new ending to chapter 2, only this time as the MC is pinned down behind the tower, he looks down at all of the bodies strewn about his feet and becomes physically ill at what he's done.  He "snaps out of it" for lack of a better way of describing things.  I'm not sure what else will change, but he is going to come out of the experience having been much more effected by his actions.  

I'm not sure I'll do a chapter detailing what he was like before chapter one though.  I don't think it would work very well.  I'd have to add another five or six chapters to the book, and while they'd be interesting, I don't think they would add to the overall plot.  I'll keep it in the back of my mind though as a possibility.

[Jexral]

Hey Jex!  Glad to know you are enjoying the story, but I was wondering if you thought the main character needed to be more sympathetic as well?  I have some ideas on how I could go about doing that (some remorse after his homicidal rage, possibly a lead up chapter detailing his exile), and I can see how softening him up a bit would appeal to a wider audience.

What is your take?  Does he need to be more sympathetic?

I really like him the way he is.  He's hard to relate to, yes, but he's interesting.  Also, you said that one of the major themes in this is redemption, so having him be remorseless and violent at the beginning could be a nice contrast to what we see later on (though I can't really be sure, since I haven't read it all <smile>).

Plus, I kind of have a thing for anti-heroes... <shrug>

[Recovering_Cynic]

You said somewhere that they were using The Count of Monte Cristo as part of your inspiration. I've only seen the movie, but I loved it and I can tell you some of the things they did there that you might want to consider was that they made you love the MC (I mean really feel for him and see the good in his character) at the beginning, and then surrounded him with people trying to hold him to higher standard when he was at his blackest (the priest, his servant, his GF) and they led to his redemption in the end (yay!).

Actually Frog, I was referring to the book, which is a lot harsher than the movie.  In the Book, Edmund Dantess sees himself as the avenging hand of God, and has no mercy whatsoever up until the very end of the book; in fact, there isn't even a love story--he doesn't get back together with his old girlfriend.  Hollywood took some big liberties with The Count of Monte Cristo although in many respects the book and the movie are quite similar.

However, I am considering adding a character, a foil if you will, someone who is everything that Jagoth is not.  This character's arc would be the mirror of Jagoth's, descending into ignominy as Jagoth rises to redemption.  It would be interesting, but difficult as things stand.  The person is already a background character, so I won't have to make him from scratch, but making him will require some major re-writing, so I do not know for certain that he will be bumped to an MC.  If the book doesn't work as I currently have it outlined, then perhaps he will be added.

[Frog]

Well, that's what hollywood does. They take liberties with things. Sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes it is not. I just used it because it's what I've and a lot of other people have seen so it worked as an example.

All I was really trying to get out is that I read for the characters and human interactions and everything else is just an extra bonus. If you aren't going to give me a character I can love or at least identify with, I am not going to enjoy your book no matter how well it is written or what great things you have ready in the plot. I would rather read something full of cliches or had no plot to speak of then read about characters that I had no connection with and right now, your character isn't doing anything for me. So my suggestion was to add more to his character or if you can't because of the current plot and pacing, give me someone else to focus on within the next few chps. But if that isn't your focus or you think I'm off base (it happens pretty frequently), that is perfectly fine. Don't even feel like you have to justify it. It is your book and you should be happy with it first and foremost. Just tune me out or tell me where you would rather I focus my efforts in my future critiques since I so frequently go to character when left to my own devices. (Yes, I know I need to be a more balanced reader/writer/critiquer, but at least I know where my strengths lie, and I am willing to try and adapt if something isn't working for you. )

[RavenstarRHJF]

I went ahead and read the bonus chapter... really good stuff!

Jagoth's characterization worked for me, as far as it went.  But he seems a little... off.  Probably because you're having problems figuring out how to do his redemption.  And since you don't really know who he is at the moment, we don't either.  It's a struggle I have myself at the moment, so I know how you feel. 

Otherwise, it was very well written- the fight scene flows smoothly and seems believable enough.   Afterall, he seems to have a "coach."  You certainly got the chaotic element down pat!  I have to wonder what his goal really was, though.  I mean, if his goal was to get into the city undetected, then he just ruined his chances.  He HAD to see that coming!  So I really hope he has a workable backup plan, and that you reveal it soon, 'cause it's not looking too good right now.

As for the bonus chapter (which I'm going to go ahead and mention some things from):  this is where I really got hooked.  And that's a problem, since these aren't your main characters.  When what the supporting characters are doing is more interesting than the MC... you see what I mean. 

Anyway, you handled the aftermath of the fight very well, keeping it interesting and using it to build character all at the same time.  I'm also guessing this is the same guy we saw in chapter 1?  Anyway, I'd recommend really getting into your MC's head, 'cause until you understand him, you won't be able to write him believably.  At least, that's the problem I have...

Good work!  Keep writing, we'll keep reading!

EDIT to add:

You know, I think your problem with Jagoth at the moment is that you're trying to show too much of him too fast.  He's a complicated character, sure, with a bunch of trauma in his past and complex motivations and demons.  However, this is chapter 2.  He's your main character- and while we've met him in chapter 1, this is, for all intents and purposes, an entirely different person.  So start slow.

Take some time to introduce his new persona, and don't fret about "advertising" it too much.  I'd be perfectly fine with it if you didn't start hinting that he's Jarl until chapter three, four, or even five.  In the end, you want your readers to think "Oh, why didn't I see that before!" when you finally reveal that Jagoth is the Jarl from the very beginning.  If we already know it, it takes away the mystery and the inherent interest in a "new" character. 

At least that's what I think. (and I got out of bed to type this, so be grateful!)

[Silk]

I'd actually assumed that whatever had happened to Jarl/Jagoth wasn't thanks to his own choices. No problems there, not yet anyway. I don't like him, particularly, but I don't hate him either.

I don't really get the sense that Jagoth is particularly horrified by what he's become either. Honestly, I think having a dichotomy--enjoying his actions at the same time as he's horrified by what he's doing, or horrified that he's enjoying it. I think it IS possible to have it both ways, to some extent, if that's what you're going for. But there's no dichotomy here.

But then, I haven't yet really got a sense of strong emotion from him about much of anything. He, or perhaps the way you're presenting him, seems a bit detached.

Now, does he need to be more sympathetic? Well... probably. Again, I think it's possible to have main characters that aren't all that sympathetic, but it raises the bar; they have to be much more interesting. The less we like someone, the more we are going to need a very good reason to spend time with them. Either way, I think we need to know your main character a little bit better. You don't have to accomplish this by writing a whole bunch of stuff that happens before chapter one; you can insert that stuff through flashbacks, maybe, or maybe you just need to look for opportunities to showcase his character more. Because really, we know very little about him.

I don't have much else to say about chapter 2. Since most people seem to be leaving the 'bonus chapter' for next time, that's what I'll do as well.