July 27th - Chaos - Oathbound

[Chaos]

Rip it to shreds. No, really, I expect everyone to hate it, so be as mean as you possibly can! I'm aiming to send this to Writers of the Future, which is kind of a big deal.

To people who haven't read this before especially, I ask that you don't read this topic, for there will be spoilers. I really want your gut, visceral reaction, and that will be much better if you're unspoiled

EDIT: Resent the submission in .doc. Sorry about that.

[RavenstarRHJF]

Well... to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's as well done as your second draft of it.  Hassan/Rashne's character is even weaker in this version, and I frankly have a hard time buying Veresh's ongoing internal hate-fest.  I just can't see why being devastated by your spouse leaving you and then not even getting the time to try and make things right before she's murdered is selfish, exactly.  I think the problem with this version and the hate-fest, is that there isn't enough time from beginning to end to see him struggling with it, whereas in the second version we got to see them searching for the Pit and you used that time to explore the characters.

Reading between the lines, it seems like Selfishness is something Samira threw at his head before storming out but, if that's the case, she comes across as pretty selfish herself, choosing one night of passion in exchange for her life.  Love is not about lust, and Rashne should have known that, and should have tried to convince her of that, instead of letting her commit suicide in her own way.    Particularly as she was the wife of his chief priest.  Her scene with Rashne came across as blatantly false to me, and I can't see why Veresh didn't see that.

To put it simply, there's no emotional journey for any of the characters, and the action which takes place isn't enough to counteract that lack.   

That said, you did a much better job disguising the fact that Hassan IS Rashne throughout.  And the actual confrontation with him is better, too, aside from making him appear a weakling.

So!  On to technicalities:

Grammar:
There are a lot of tense problems right at the very beginning.

A wonderful relief, but what couldn't be a relief after what that Immortal did to Samira? The Imprisoned God may be a blasphemous god, but to me, that's weak compared to rape and murder. All I remember was Samira's soiled body, oozing with divine residue.

The first bit just reads awkwardly.  The second sentence reads more like an internal thought, and as such should be italicized or highlighted in some other way to show it's different.  And the third: "remember" is present tense, and "was" is past tense.

"When you left Rashne's priesthood, I didn't have to save you. I didn't need to go with you then, and that was back when I hadn't even known you."

 
"didn't even know" would be better

Hassan was just in his normal, selfless form

As opposed to his abnormal, selfish form?   I think what you were looking for was "just being his normal, selfless, self," or better yet, rephrase it entirely.  And you left an "I" out of the next sentence.

I never deserved this compassion

... or "didn't" deserve "his" compassion.

The POV in the next bit is confusing, because we come right out of a Veresh internal viewpoint into untagged dialogue, so it's hard to tell that Hassan is continuing his reassurances from before.

The Pit opened as a perfect circle. The rock walls were cut away smoothly, but a jagged path etched into it marred the Pit's deific construction. It had a brutal, shadowy efficient quality, looking barely wider than me. Anarax must have built this to lead a mortal to the bottom.

the bolded part needs to be rephrased, it's too wordy.  I'm not sure what exactly you mean by the italicized part, and you could put the underlined bit into the description of the path in the first sentence, a la "a shallow, jagged path, barely wide enough for one person."

Once we went deeper and the sun no longer shone so brightly

Probably need to say that it's not penetrating the depths.  This sounds like the sun itself is dimming.

After all Hassan did to push the suicide out of my mind, it comes up again?

Forgive me, but just a few moments earlier he was acknowledging that he wouldn't be coming back to the surface.  Death is death.

The trail arced down the edge of what looked like a huge dome, the flue at its apex

Seems to me the change in angles would be enough that they couldn't get down without some sophisticated climbing equipment, or built-in handholds, like monkey bars, until the path reached the base of the dome.

I instinctively my ragged robe's pocket.

Left out a word here...

the god said harshly, but the voice... were impossible to read.

So how'd he know it was harsh?  And "were" needs to be "was."

And, many more.  I'll send you an email.

[Chaos]

Perfectly fair. I see your points entirely. Thank you for reading and putting up with it!

[ErikHolmes]

Hassan and I peered into the dark chasm. For the fabled place which contained the Imprisoned God, the entrance appeared rather benign, about as threatening as a well--one that contained the dark god I needed to free.

This line seemed off to me. Maybe I just don't like it, but it can be written better I'm sure.

All I remember was Samira's soiled body, oozing with divine residue.

I think the image of her death might be one that it worth wasting words on, the whole story has been set in motion with her death, I'd suggest trying to show the reader why it's got your protagonist so upset.

By what fates did get a friend like this?

Typo

Now the only trail was down into Damnation.

I like what this line is saying, but I think it can be worded better.

Overall impression:

I think the story still needs a little work. I like the overall story, but once he meets up with Anarax things just feel a little off to me. I think its probably just needs to be reworded.

I think that part of the difficulty is that you are dealing with a lot of tough subjects here, love, vengeance, suicide. Not to mention the whole betrayal-adultery-murder thing.  And you have to get them just write. I'll just lay it out, here is how I was feeling when I read it:

Im not buying or feeling Veresh's reactions to what's happened. It might be that you're trying for too many different emotions. He's suicidal, angry, outraged, and heartbroken. It's a short story, you might just want to pick one and concentrate on it. A big example is how you tell us that he's really suicidal, like thinking about jumping down to his death at one point, then a few paragraphs later, he's happy that he gets to live.

Also, some of the logic about things seemed off to me. I'll read it again tomorrow and try to pin down what bothered me about it.

It's a good story, it just need to be polished!

[Miang]

I never read your other drafts so I'm coming off of this from just the copy this week. In a way I guess that's bad since I can't give any ideas on progress, but in a way its good too since I have a fresh perspective. Anyway -- here goes.

I liked the overall tone and style. Dark, brooding heroes aren't totally uncommon but I liked the fact that Varesh felt driven to act instead of simply focus his pain inward. I thought it was well focused -- you stayed very well on point and didn't wander like a lot of people tend to do in shorts.

I thought Samira was the weakest of your characters. Her motives are a complete mystery to me. Most women, even if they are unhappy in their marriages, won't go as far as to sleep with someone if it is going to cost them their life either for love, lust or to get their husband's attention. While the fact that she wasn't raped was foreshadowed fairly well in my opinion her thought process doesn't click with me and leaves me wondering if we were missing some other facet that would make her motives more clear.

I think it would strength the story to know if Varesh was work obsessed out of true, fanatical faith or simple personal ambition. Since selfishness is the crux of the story it would help define who he was before his wife's death and give the reader perspective on his inner turmoil.

It might have just been me but I was a little fuzzy on time in a couple of places. How long ago was Samira's death, give or take? Sometimes it seems very fresh, perhaps days while at other times it seems to me that it's been a long time. This is important in figuring out the dynamic between Varesh and Hasaan/Rashne. At one point it is made clear that they weren't associated until after Samira's death but then Varesh describes Hasaan as his "best friend".

Rashne's protectiveness makes sense to me, but I wonder about his willingness to accept Samira's offer. I think it's clear that he feels guilty about doing so, but it seems to be a serious flaw in his divinity although it casts Varesh's anger in a better light. After all, even without rape there is the issue of a god having sex with someone knowing they would have to be killed afterward. Perhaps developing Rashne/Hassan a little more strongly would help sort this out?

There are a few places where the sentence structure and grammar is a bit sticky. In particular look out for overdoing the adjectives. "horrible murderer" "atrocious revenge" "foolish vengeance".

Hope this helps some!

[Silk]

I find it a bit problematic that Veresh instantly assumed that the only way to free the god was sacrificing himself, and went ahead to do so without even asking Anarax what really needed to be done. At least, as it's presented. If this is just his suicidal urge manifesting itself then we need to see that, and here we don't. Veresh goes to stab himself without any warning, and seems genuinely relieved that Anarax stopped him from doing so. And it seems that his revenge should be more important to him than suicide at this point in any case.

"You... would need to be touching the power for the Oath to work." Hassan's line. But really, if he doesn't want Veresh to do this, why would he TELL Veresh how it works?

Rashne didn't seem to be in pain at all when Veresh tried to put the knife in this throat the second time, but he screamed in pain when Veresh punched the same shield?

From a technical perspective, I think starting this story at the Pit was a good idea. The pacing's good and the flow from one event to the next feels better. It also allows you to put more focus on the events in the Pit of Damnation, which I think is as it should be.

But I do have many of the same problems I had the first time around--the motivations of the characters just aren't clear enough to me a lot of the time. I feel like we don't have enough of them to give the story the impact it needs. Samira's basically opaque to me--we get Veresh's regrets about her, but very little else, and Veresh is not exactly a reliable narrator in this. I don't feel like I know Veresh or Rashne/Hassan as well as I should in this draft either.

So that would be my biggest concern; more of the characters. Like I said earlier, I agree with your decision to start the story at the Pit, but it might not be a bad idea to dribble in bits of the earlier story--the fight between Veresh and Samira in particular might do a great deal to clear up the motivations for both of them.

I wouldn't worry too much about bogging the story down--at least not at this point. You can always trim later if you have to, but you might not have to. You don't necessarily need to spend a whole lot of time to establish these things. You just need to give us the right moments at the right times.

[Frog]

Thoughts While Reading:

about as threatening as a well--one that contained the dark god I needed to free.

I stumbled over this sentence a few times, because, as it is first person, it just sounds like he is stuttering a bit rather then referring to a water well. A little rephrasing would help clear that up.

A wonderful relief, but what couldn't be a relief after what that Immortal did to Samira? The Imprisoned God may be a blasphemous god, but to me, that's weak compared to rape and murder. All I remember was Samira's soiled body, oozing with divine residue.

Lots of confusion here. What does a cool rock cavern come as any relief to an inner turmoil over rape? The two don't seem to relate well enough to be strung together so closely without some more information.

Well, I'll go ahead and stick my foot into it. There seems to be some romantic tension between Hassan and Veresh in the first section, especially since Veresh isn't a name I can immediately assign a gender to, that you may not want. I would give us a little more about these two characters before we throw in this thing about Samira or even learn all the 'whys' of what they are doing here.

I leaned in a bit more into the cavern. There was still a good distance down. I could fall... then it would all be over.
“Veresh!” Hassan shouted.
The voice snapped me back to reality. What was I thinking? After all Hassan did to push the suicide out of my mind, it comes up again? Doing it here would be selfish.

This seems a bit too casual reference to suicide for me to buy it with any emotion. I think I need more Veresh's thoughts and what has lead him to this position.

“You're worrying me,” Hassan said. “I know you're determined to see this through, but I've seen revenge consume too many. It's nearly consumed me, at times. If you're just doing this so you can die... Veresh, promise me that's not true. Promise that you'll know when to stop. So you can live with happiness and sanity.”

If he was suicidal before, why wouldn't they have discussed this before?

“Your Reverence, I am honored with your presence.” And spooked.

My devotion to Rashne caused Samira to leave, and he goes and destroys my life immediately after.

Huh? Veresh seems to have a gift for overdramatization and overgeneralization and in order to trust him as an narrotator, I need some specific examples and a clear sequence of events. And what would Samira be praying to Rashne for? What did she want from him, or at least, what did Veresh think she wanted?
 
Your premise seems contradictory. If he is the God of Honor and bound by Oaths, wouldn't the oath of a Marriage (complete fidelity) bind him as well, making the act of rape imposable? And even if Veresh and Samira weren't married, if sex is a promise to create children, wouldn't the act of sex itself be a broken oath, not only the bearing of children?

I don't understand why it is Veresh's fault that Samira died. I think we may need a clear scene that sets up their relationship, and what happened at Samira's death from his POV to have a better understanding of Veresh's thoughts, supposed selfishness, and Samira's character. That could be a very powerful scene that binds the reader to Veresh emotionally, even if you have to rely on the dreaded flashback.
 

Can't have people relying on me like that.

People rely on the bound God? What did he do to be bound? And why would he want to be willing to give his power to a mortal while, basically, committing suicide? His power would live on, but since he doesn't, how does that help him?

Quickly, I Exterminated my Oath of Destruction upon him.

They can do that? Wouldn't that contradict your whole oath power system if they can so easily be called back?

Overall Impression:
Well, I am interested in a lot of your themes, magic system, characters and your writing is generally good. That said, this piece needs some work IMO. Most of this is probably me adding my voice to the choir, but here it is again. I don't feel I have a clear motivation for a lot of the characters, namely The Bound God, Rashne and Samira's infidelity (you know, beyond the obvious, in which I say it makes them seem rather weak. You're the God Of Honor, get some self control ) and Veresh in that I need some more basis for his claimed weakness of selfishness (oh, and by the end I was sick of that particular word, especially w/o some actual examples of unreasonable selfishness). I would say that you may just have more story, themes and characters then you have words right now. So you are going to have to decide to expand the story or find a way to simplify it. At least that would be my suggestion.

Great submission though.

[ryos]

I know it's been over a month. Is that too late to offer critiques?

You expected everyone to hate it. I...didn't like it at all. I'm sure it's not quite so bad as all that, but my reaction to it was very negative. Maybe it's because I really liked what you were doing in the previous drafts, and then you pulled this revision seemingly out of nowhere which took away most of what I liked and failed to add anything I wanted more of.

With every draft, you've removed more of the storybook/legend/campfire-tale tone. That was your biggest strength! Ever play Prince of Persia: the Sands of Time? It had this wonderful storybook tone. You had that! This just tosses it out the window.

I disagree with Silk that this was a good place to start the story. It didn't leave you with any time to set up the conflict or the characters, and as a consequence those things felt rushed. We get less of the cosmology, so it makes less sense and isn't as cool. We don't really feel Veresh's pain, or care when he dies.

I could probably go on, but I don't think it would be constructive. This story has a lot of great ideas, but this draft isn't doing them any favors. If it were me writing the story, I'd scrap this draft, roll back to number 2, look back over the comment thread and see how it could be refined. Give Veresh's wife a real reason to want to die. Give Rashne a real reason to be willing to kill her. Make this conflict into a legend that storytellers would want to tell around the campfires of the merchant caravans of ancient Persia. And I still want to know why Anarax got damned.

And darn it, I want a pony! Sorry to get a little carried away, but I *really* want to see this story succeed, and this draft just isn't doing it for me.

[Silk]

Nah. Never shy away from giving a critique 'cause it's "too late".