Author Topic: General Religious discussion  (Read 67344 times)

The Jade Knight

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #210 on: June 13, 2009, 05:42:45 AM »
And from Frog on page 12 of this thread: "By their fruits you shall know them." If you want to know that Thomas Monson, or any of the previous prophets are correct, you have to read their teachings, judge their actions, and then pray about it.

I have read about the life and sayings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young written by Mormons, orthodox Christians and a certain "cultural Mormon," most recently.  I have compared these men's lives, writings and practices to men like Charles Spurgeon and Jim Elliot, Andrew Murray and Amy Carmichael (a woman! imagine that!), Michael Behe and  Hudson Taylor.  I urge anyone with an open and curious mind to do the same.  My Mormon friends are the nicest people in the world, but none of them so far have been willing to judge any of their early prophets by their fruits or compare their Mormon beliefs with the Bible.  I have a feeling that someone on this forum might be more intellectually sincere. 

I think you'll find a great many of us quite intellectually sincere—if you've read this thread, this much should be obvious, I'd hope.  Out of curiostiy, do you have any training in historiography?
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mtbikemom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #211 on: June 13, 2009, 05:38:06 PM »
The short answer is, no . . . but I don't hold much with intellectual snobbery.   8)

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #212 on: June 13, 2009, 06:15:40 PM »
the probability of the bible being right and everything else being wrong, b/c that's what it claims to be the ONLY way to salvation so if you want to get to the law of probability i say his gamble is just as bad as yours and if there is indeed one way then man in general is screwed
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Frog

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #213 on: June 13, 2009, 09:04:08 PM »
I've been sick ( :'() so I haven't been active in any of the forums lately, but I was happy to see that this one calmed down a bit. So I shall be brave and address mtbikemom's comment to me. :P

And from Frog on page 12 of this thread: "By their fruits you shall know them." If you want to know that Thomas Monson, or any of the previous prophets are correct, you have to read their teachings, judge their actions, and then pray about it.
I have read about the life and sayings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young written by Mormons, orthodox Christians and a certain "cultural Mormon," most recently.  I have compared these men's lives, writings and practices to men like Charles Spurgeon and Jim Elliot, Andrew Murray and Amy Carmichael (a woman! imagine that!), Michael Behe and  Hudson Taylor.  I urge anyone with an open and curious mind to do the same.  My Mormon friends are the nicest people in the world, but none of them so far have been willing to judge any of their early prophets by their fruits or compare their Mormon beliefs with the Bible.  I have a feeling that someone on this forum might be more intellectually sincere. 
I would see no problem with studying the lives and teachings of any of the men (and woman!) you mention. Our doctrine is based in principles and truth and they have a habit of showing up all over the place and from various sources (imagine that!) and we were given the challenge to seek them out and add to them. But one thing I'd say is that with studying those men and teachings, it is also important to look at who they claim to be. Jesus said he was the Son of God and Savior of the World and I believe him. Joseph Smith said that he was a prophet and I believe him. If you say that these people taught good principles and lived good lives, I will probably believe them as well (haven't read them yet, but now I'm interested, so maybe I will. Alas! So much to do, so little time. Such is the way of life :( ) and could list many more that could fall under this category that I have read.

But if I went around, claiming to be a follower of Joseph Smith (just as an example) and than said he was higher or lower than the prophet he claimed to be, you would certainly be in your rights to say that I missed something. And I would say the same for any of the other examples.
 
I'm a bit curious though by what you mean by 'comparing our Mormon beliefs to the Bible.' I wouldn't think any Mormon would squirm at comparing their beliefs to the Bible simply because we don't see the contradiction. Why can't they both be right?

And to Kaz's question, I would say that if the Bible teaches principles that are echoed in many other sources, doesn't that make it much less of a gamble? Calling the Bible 'right' just isn't the same as 'calling everything else wrong.'

At least those are my current thoughts. Anyone care to add/subtract to them?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 09:11:15 PM by Frog »
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #214 on: June 13, 2009, 11:45:42 PM »
"i am the way the truth and the light no one gets to the father except through me" according to the bible you either except christ as god and follow him or go on a one way ticket to hell... thus my point stands uncorrected



P.S. anyone surprized i can spout off bible versus i use to have all of John chapter 3 memorized... had it beaten into me :P
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Reaves

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #215 on: June 14, 2009, 12:09:19 AM »
I
the probability of the bible being right and everything else being wrong, b/c that's what it claims to be the ONLY way to salvation so if you want to get to the law of probability i say his gamble is just as bad as yours and if there is indeed one way then man in general is screwed

        If all religions are in fact equal and the best we can do is just randomly pick one and hope its right, then you are correct.
       We are screwed.

However, we don't need to just close our eyes and pick the religion our fingers land on as we look through the cosmic library of religion. That's not what we were intended to do.

I believe that God Himself came to this earth in the form of a man to show us, as you quoted earlier, "the way, the truth, and the life." Its as if we are sitting unaware in the middle of the train tracks. There's only one way to survive: get off the tracks. You can't dig under them. You can't fly over them. You can't push the train away. Jesus came to die to give us a chance to accept His way of life.
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Frog

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #216 on: June 14, 2009, 04:57:47 AM »
No Kaz, it doesn't surprise me at all that you can quote John. Most people have access to the Bible now a-days.  ;)

But I would say that even with the Savior being called the 'only way' it can still be a pretty safe bet because I know of very few (if any) religions that say that if you follow the Savior and his teachings you will go to Hell. And since the very basic principles within religions tend to match, I'd say it was a pretty safe bet all around.

BTW I am now picturing you as the funny guy, Benny, in the first Mummy movie where he pulls out all those different religious medallions and prays to each of them in turn to get rid of the Mummy. And it amuses me greatly. ;)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 04:59:26 AM by Frog »
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #217 on: June 14, 2009, 05:16:04 AM »
the difference between benny and myself alas isn't much but i believe that whatever not whomever god is loves his creation and will do right by it and he will not send us into eternal agony for mistakes so long as we strived to better ourselves and do right unto those around us
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

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sortitus

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #218 on: June 14, 2009, 07:01:48 AM »
Wow, dude, are you really willing to risk your eternal life on that guess?  Again, this is another thing I used to believe with all my heart, but no longer do.  What if the Bible is true and you're wrong?  There is no second chance for salvation after death and this might be your last one.
Yes, I am willing to wager my eternal life (should it exist) on that. On one hand I agree with Kaz's most recent post (directly above this one), but on the other the God of the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) is made out to be such a capricious, egotistical, overbearing, and generally crappy ruler that the wisest course of action may be to leg it and never look back. This last point is basically what caused my most recent girlfriend (a Mormon) to break up with me. I only say basically because it was slightly more complicated than that. It always is that way (complicated), isn't it?

That brings me to another point that I find interesting: the apparent mandate from LDS authority saying that members aren't allowed to date non-members. The aforementioned girl felt that she was sinning because she was dating me. Having gone most of my school years to schools that are made up almost completely of Mormons, I know that this wasn't some mistaken belief unique to her. In fact, there were generally two reactions the Mormon kids had upon finding that I wasn't "one of them". They would either treat me as if I had some disease and stay away, or they would try to "cure" me. I still keep count of the number of times I've had the missionaries sicked on me (I started keeping count in 9th grade). The official count is 35, including last Thursday. lol. Maybe the question to life, the universe, and everything is "How many times must sortitus be given the first discussion before he decides to round out the set and join the Mormon mafia?" If that's so, just seven to go. ;)

Nothing against you Mormon peeps. You're just very determined. :D
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #219 on: June 14, 2009, 08:25:08 PM »
Well sortitus is because you are a blasphemer and not because of you post it's the signature
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

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sortitus

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #220 on: June 14, 2009, 09:03:30 PM »
Hey! What's wrong with driving cars straight into outer space?
Hero of Ages: Impressive Regality Over Niceness, Y'all
좋아! This time with more ecstatic! 좋네!!! I'll say it again in french! Trois fois voiture!!! Ça va. C'est vrai. C'est bien.
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mtbikemom

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #221 on: June 14, 2009, 11:25:31 PM »
Sortitus wrote:  Maybe the question to life, the universe, and everything is "How many times must sortitus be given the first discussion before he decides to round out the set and join the Mormon mafia?"

That would be, dear Sort, if the world did actually revolve around you. 

Answer me this, if you would.  How many lies to you estimate you have told in your life.  Be honest, now.  :D

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #222 on: June 15, 2009, 04:57:08 AM »
you mean other than the delusion about having a girlfriend even in the past? ;)
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

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The Jade Knight

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #223 on: June 15, 2009, 11:48:45 AM »
The short answer is, no . . . but I don't hold much with intellectual snobbery.   8)

So, you consider yourself as qualified as a historian to determine how historiographically honest a work of history is?

the probability of the bible being right and everything else being wrong, b/c that's what it claims to be the ONLY way to salvation so if you want to get to the law of probability i say his gamble is just as bad as yours and if there is indeed one way then man in general is screwed

This ignores the nature of Pascal's wager; realize that it's a risk of a slightly inconvenienced lifestyle vs. the risk of eternal damnation (Pascal's views, not mine).  People have pointed out flaws in Pascal's Wager, but yours is generally not used as one of them.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #224 on: June 15, 2009, 12:06:17 PM »
That brings me to another point that I find interesting: the apparent mandate from LDS authority saying that members aren't allowed to date non-members. The aforementioned girl felt that she was sinning because she was dating me. Having gone most of my school years to schools that are made up almost completely of Mormons, I know that this wasn't some mistaken belief unique to her. In fact, there were generally two reactions the Mormon kids had upon finding that I wasn't "one of them". They would either treat me as if I had some disease and stay away, or they would try to "cure" me. I still keep count of the number of times I've had the missionaries sicked on me (I started keeping count in 9th grade). The official count is 35, including last Thursday. lol. Maybe the question to life, the universe, and everything is "How many times must sortitus be given the first discussion before he decides to round out the set and join the Mormon mafia?" If that's so, just seven to go. ;)

Nothing against you Mormon peeps. You're just very determined. :D

Interestingly enough, Sortitus, Ari was not a Latter-day Saint when we started dating.  In fact, she was quite opposed to the thought of joining the Church.  She was not LDS when we got engaged, either.  Now, this certainly made a great many LDS people I know uncomfortable, and we're encouraged to date other Saints, but not a single person suggested that I was breaking any commandment.  You see, we're encouraged to date "within the Covenant" because doing so generally saves Latter-day Saints a lot of heartache down the road.  But we're not forbidden from doing otherwise.

This recommendation is not without sociological reason, either: statistically, marriages consisting of two individuals from different religions have a much higher divorce rate than those consisting of two religions from the same religion.  When one (but not both) of those individuals is LDS, the number soars much higher.  Most Latter-day Saints know individuals who married non-LDS folks, and regret it.  In fact, my great grandmother cursed the fact that for nearly 50 years she had married my grandfather out of the temple (a secular wedding).  The fact is, in every way, a marriage between a Latter-day Saint and a non-Latter-day Saint is statistically much less likely to be successful, for pretty obvious reasons.  For these reasons, it's generally not a good idea for the two groups to date eachother.

All that said, I've never had an LDS girlfriend; it just never worked out for me that way.  I've dated non-Saints my entire life, and now I'm going to marry Ari, who wasn't LDS when we started dating and got engaged (though she got baptized a little over two years ago).  In my case, I knew who she was almost from the start, and knew she was a good woman.  For her part, she took a much closer look at the Church than she previously had.  But it shouldn't surprise you that Latter-day Saints are encouraged to date those of the same religion as them; sociologically, this is just smart, if they want to stay married.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 11:26:24 AM by The Jade Knight »
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