Mistborn 3 Annotations Discussion *Spoilers*

[Chaos]

Take a look at this, from MB3 Chapter Seventy Three.

Here we finally have Vin suck in the mists and use them to fuel her Allomancy completely. I began building this plot arc way back in book one, which ends with Vin drawing upon the mists to fight the Lord Ruler. It took me all the way until here to make good on that, though I still don't even explain how or why she was able to do it. Eventually I'd like to be able to do that, but we'll see. It's bigger than this trilogy. I have to leave some secrets for later.

Thoughts on why? Or perhaps, will we learn the answer in a later Mistborn trilogy, or in some other Cosmere world?

[Miyabi]

I'd think it would stay in world.  Perhaps it will be explained in a religious text in one of the later trilogies.

[Chaos]

Considering how much we've learned in the first trilogy, I'd imagine Brandon would need some very particular secrets for the later ones. So I tend to agree with you.

[Miyabi]

I'm just not seeing something like the mists moving into another world.  That would seem. . . Hmm.

[Chaos]

Well I more meant that some Realmatic explanation may come from any source, and could be directly pertinent in a different world.

[Miyabi]

Awe, that makes sense.

[Comatose]

First of all, on the point of inquisitors not being able to procreate: Vin, despite being married for over a year, and half skaa (who are known to have more children), never gets pregnat.  True, she is also half noble and Elend is full noble, and her body has suffered numerous traumas, so that could explain it as well...
Hemalurgy is all about reduction and breaking power into smaller and smaller pieces until it can all be destroyed (ie: killing several allomancers and feruchemists to put their power into an inquisitor), so, to me anyways, it could concievably make sense that it's touch renders you infertile.
Vin's mother, remember, had no spike, she was merely insane.
Just an idea.
Also, this may be a question fro Peter or Brandon, but something about hemalurgy has been bothering me.
The inquisitors gain the ability to store health in gold from their pewter spike, and as far as I know they have no gold spike (the power is unknown in the Ars Arcanum in book three anyways), so do they have gold metal minds like the Lord Ruler's atium ones that pierce their flesh so Vin couldn's see them?  How were they storing gold? 
Anyways, speaking of the Lord Ruler, we know that the atium bracelets were hemalurgically charged (In an annotation Brandon mentions that he is the product of all three magic systems, if I remember correctly), so what is the effect on him of having an atium hemalurgic piercing, besides having a metal mind to store his youth in that won't be stolen by allomancers?
Just a few questions... please, ponder away, I know I will be.

EDIT: I just realized that I have already asked this question with the inquisitors gold minds, however in my search I never discovered if it was answered.  If it was, just point me in the basic direction or summarize the gist of it, and please forgive me my ignorance. 

[Omelethead]

Looking back just a bit, Chapter Seventy's annotation (The Reason for the Mistsickness) says:

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

Anyone think in the future trilogies there will be Rioters testing the population trying to Snap them? Maybe Nicrosil-enhanced Rioters, but still, just a quick Rioting of joy and then you're done. Something official, where people make an appointment and visit a "doctors" office for the test, not Allomancers randomly targeting people on the streets. Seems like a much more civilized way than beating your kids.

[Fireborn]

Looking back just a bit, Chapter Seventy's annotation (The Reason for the Mistsickness) says:

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

Anyone think in the future trilogies there will be Rioters testing the population trying to Snap them? Maybe Nicrosil-enhanced Rioters, but still, just a quick Rioting of joy and then you're done. Something official, where people make an appointment and visit a "doctors" office for the test, not Allomancers randomly targeting people on the streets. Seems like a much more civilized way than beating your kids.

Before I read that I had the idea that they might use a series of injections to induce extreme pain without being lethal.  I suppose that this makes more sense, though.

Oh, question!  Could a Rioter control physical pain, since it's just a mental thing?  And, conversely, could a Soother reduce pain?

[Comatose]

I always wondered, if Inquisitors feel pain in relation to strong emotions, and I don't think they are given spikes for copper, could a rioter riot their emotions so much that they are overwhelmed with pain?

[Renoard]

Okay, I finally read the Mistborn trilogy.  This might be an old question but I'm left wondering, are feruchemy and allomancy intended to be mystical in nature and therefore a "magic-system" or are they intended to be biological/physical/technological processes.  Ultimately is this a SciFi series or a Fantasy series.  Personally I lean toward an interpretation that it is a "science" that only some have the biology to practice.

I get that Preservation is the ultimate source for Allomancy and Ruin for hemolurgy/bloodmagic.  But a person could argue that a god providing the ability doesn't make it any more magical than a sense of taste, which presumably Preservation and Ruin cooperated to produce in the people and animals of their planet.

[douglas]

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."

If your primary criterion for "magic" is that it not be understood, then what qualifies as magic is highly subjective and depends very much on whether a magic user is a major viewpoint character and how much any such characters understand what they are doing.  Furthermore, it can change purely by in-world research or the addition of one scene containing a monologue about how it all works.  Shift around a few characters and insert monologues, and just about any fantasy series could be converted to scifi rather easily.  I think this is a rather poor and unsatisfying definition, as the definition of something should not in my opinion depend on how much of it is revealed to the reader.

I haven't really formalized the definition of what I consider magic, but I think the irreplaceable involvement of the magic-user is an important criterion, possibly the most important.  If it's something that is done by a particular person, and there are people who, regardless of mental capacity, real-world physical characteristics, and education, would be completely incapable of replacing that person even in theory in doing it, then it's probably magic.  Inventing a computer?  Get enough smarts and the right education, and anybody could do it.  Shooting coins around with Allomancy?  Sorry, if you're not a Mistborn or the right Misting, you can't do it.  Any exercise of Mind-Directly-over-Matter or similar usually qualifies too, even if everyone in the setting is technically capable of learning it.  By my definition, Allomancy and Feruchemy are most definitely magic systems.  Now that I think about it, Hemalurgy is more borderline, but I'd still call it magic due to how its interaction with the definite magic systems is such a major part of it.

[Renoard]

No. My criterion for "magic" include that the power be mystical in some essential way, and that the effects are such that they defy Newtonian physics in some localized phenomenon.

Saying a prayer or reciteing a spell, even making magic passes, are things that are classic elements in "magic" and are essentially mystical.  Even a Wizard in Rhyme, depends on the quality and intensity of poetic recitation and mental imagery for magic to function.

I see mysticism in the cosmology of Mistborn, but the actual practice of Allomancy is coldy rational and depends on macro-physics (e.g. gravitation, conservation of mass and energy, thermodynamics, etc.).

Psionics for instance aren't magic because they presuppose a mental acuity that is a simple inherited trait and an unknown physical force channeled through the mind, following the principles of ordinary physics.  But calling on spirits to teleport, read minds, or move things kenetically is mystical in an essential way because of the mystical being involved.

[douglas]

Ah, but how do you define "mystical" and what makes a "spirit" different from "an unknown physical force", and how the &*%^ is channeling it through the mind without some extremely advanced brain-tech not magical?

By any definition I care to use, psionics is most definitely magical.  The presence or absence of external "showy bits" like specific gestures or incantations, whether some subset of physical laws actually does apply to it, and how well understood it is by the viewpoint characters and readers are all completely irrelevant to me with regard to whether something is magical or not.  Functional well understood magic that only partly breaks the laws of physics is still magic.

[happyman]

No. My criterion for "magic" include that the power be mystical in some essential way, and that the effects are such that they defy Newtonian physics in some localized phenomenon.

It seems to me that any definition of mystical you might use really just means that we don't understand it.  Saying that something is mystical is a statement of ignorance, not a fundamental property.

As for denying Newtonian physics---why Newtonian physics?  Black holes and particle accelerators violate Newtonian physics.  If you really mean "Violate physics as we currently understand it", you are once again using ignorance as your criterion, not anything fundamental about the proposed phenomenon.

Saying a prayer or reciteing a spell, even making magic passes, are things that are classic elements in "magic" and are essentially mystical.  Even a Wizard in Rhyme, depends on the quality and intensity of poetic recitation and mental imagery for magic to function.

I'm not sure how this relates to the rest of the topic.  Are you arguing that because the external forms of Allomancy are not those of traditional magic systems, that somehow Allomancy itself is less magical?  Would you still say this if you saw Allomancy from the outside, and people refused to explain the system to you?

I see mysticism in the cosmology of Mistborn, but the actual practice of Allomancy is coldy rational and depends on macro-physics (e.g. gravitation, conservation of mass and energy, thermodynamics, etc.).

There is mysticism, in that the world is a large place and humans don't understand everything.  From the Annotations, though, it is clear that there is a large, well-developed backstory that accounts for a lot of the things that appear mystical.  I suspect that as we read further, the "oddly rational" bits will become stronger.  I would view this paragraph cited above as simply stating that we understand Allomancy better than the other parts of the world-building, and thus it seems more controlled and down-to-Earth.

Psionics for instance aren't magic because they presuppose a mental acuity that is a simple inherited trait and an unknown physical force channeled through the mind, following the principles of ordinary physics.  But calling on spirits to teleport, read minds, or move things kenetically is mystical in an essential way because of the mystical being involved.

Psionics is totally magical.  They violate Newton's laws (and Maxwell's equations) out the ears, and have absolutely no remotely plausible theory or mechanism in the real world.  The fact that such things show up so often in Science Fiction (although fantasy uses the ideas often enough, too, often as part of a larger magic system!) is an interesting historical fact, and totally blurs the line between science fiction and fantasy.