June -08 -2009- Hamster- Soul Taker Chapter 6

[Hamster]

Here is the sixth installment of Soul Taker. We are back to Kale's Pov, so please try to focus on his character as much as possible, and what I can improve on, or what works.

If you need a summary there was one in the email, and if you missed previous chapters and want to read them, just send me a message and I'll get em to you.

Thanks for reading and critiquing guys, hope you enjoy it!

[swaindaddy]

First read of your stuff so I may not have the full picture.

I liked the story overall and didn't feel I could skim at all = good.

The action was nice and the dilemma takes an interesting turn.

Things that stood out to me:

Not a fan of all the name calling. The thief boy had to do some to establish that part of his character but it was still a bit over-done imho. I also felt that Kale used it a little overboard as well, although you point out it was on purpose to get a rise out of the guard. Kale seems to me to be the type that he would let silent resolve speak volumes rather than talk a lot though.

As far as Kale goes - I like him but felt a bit of a paper-doll element. Meaning, when you refer to his backstory - nightmares, roles as soul taker and leader of military orders you don't elaborate enough for my taste. Don't have to overdo it but a little more of that background would provide a deeper insight to Kale.

Instead of saying he didn't like to kill children, refer to a time when he did and the vivid memory that might leave in his psyche. That would provide deeper insight to the man than just a reference. doesn't have to be much - maybe just a few sentences describing the incident to put us in his shoes and let us feel his pain. I think you could benefit form the old writing maxim: Show don't tell. (it's what I neglect to do on first drafts as well)

Again, great story just needs added depth that revision can give. Keep it up.

[RavenstarRHJF]

A little later than I intended, but... here goes:

It's good to get more of your story, finally!  Some interesting things happen- I can see you're trying to set up action later on. 

The one thing that hit me was that, capture aside, it seems almost too easy for Kale.  Yeah, he's this great powerful guy who can do things others can't because of his fearsome soul-taking powers, but that just tells me they should take more care around him- perhaps especially since he's their prisoner.  I can see him taking on the one guard, but really... sending ONLY one?  Not tying him up before trying to move him anywhere at all?  No show of overwhelming force (if only by what he can hear of the numbers of men around him) to make him more compliant?

He rambles a lot in this installment, too.  Maybe because he's going a bit insane?  The name-calling from the boy fits as an attempt to establish dominance, but it does go on a bit longer than strictly necessary.  Inventive, and fun to read, but a bit too long.   I can buy that he thinks of a sentry before the fight and then completely forgets about him, but if that's the way you want to go, you should put more emphasis on the way the fight takes up all his attention.

The black hood- strictly speaking, if it was stitched to his neck with wire, he shouldn't be able to eat anything at all.  And a person dies within three days of being denied fluids from dehydration- just so you know.   This also seems like a good opportunity for a little torturing on the part of his captors, should they be so inclined- but they may not be.

And I've got to admit:  I'm a little surprised he'd go to work for the same people who sent a Soul-Taker after his family.  Maybe it's just economics (he's still got to eat, after all), but there should be some conflict there that we're not seeing.  Maybe it's swallowed up by general misery at his present state, but there are times when he seems almost proud of his abilities.  Maybe it's just that I came late to the story to begin with, and your updates have been pretty sparse, but it seems like his character is still pretty fluid- like you're still playing around with different aspects and it's not a whole picture yet.  Just something to think about.

Otherwise, good job!  Moving the plot along is always a good thing!  Please, keep it coming!

[Hamster]

Thanks for the critiques guys!

Thanks for your opinions about the name calling, I felt like it went overboard, especially when Kale joined in. Even though it does kind've fit his character, because he was really really annoyed, I thought it was over the top. But I'm gonna keep it for the thief boy, because it fits perfectly with his character, as you will find out later.

I will also elaborate a lot more on Kale's past, but this is only the 3rd chapter from his POV, so I'm trying not to elaborate too much yet, but I see your point, and I always have trouble with "Show don't tell"

The one thing that hit me was that, capture aside, it seems almost too easy for Kale.  Yeah, he's this great powerful guy who can do things others can't because of his fearsome soul-taking powers, but that just tells me they should take more care around him- perhaps especially since he's their prisoner.  I can see him taking on the one guard, but really... sending ONLY one?  Not tying him up before trying to move him anywhere at all?  No show of overwhelming force (if only by what he can hear of the numbers of men around him) to make him more compliant?
.

They didn't know he was a Soul Taker, these are just *common* thieves(...as far as you know) they tried to rob him while he slept, and he ended up taking out two of them, but he DIDN"T use his powers to do it,  and as well, these guys are pretty arrogant, they assumed he was no threat. Like you're saying, BIG MISTAKE

The black hood- strictly speaking, if it was stitched to his neck with wire, he shouldn't be able to eat anything at all.  And a person dies within three days of being denied fluids from dehydration- just so you know.   This also seems like a good opportunity for a little torturing on the part of his captors, should they be so inclined- but they may not be.

LOL!! Yes, well, you are quite right, he can't really eat. BIG mistake on my part, for some reason I forgot he had a hood sewed on...As for dehydration, well, for him, there are ways around that, which I shall edit into that chapter, but as a Soul Taker, he is quite special in ways beyond awesome combat.

- I considered torture, and then realized that it's out of character for the captors, again, more will be explained...

And I've got to admit:  I'm a little surprised he'd go to work for the same people who sent a Soul-Taker after his family.  Maybe it's just economics (he's still got to eat, after all), but there should be some conflict there that we're not seeing.  Maybe it's swallowed up by general misery at his present state, but there are times when he seems almost proud of his abilities.  Maybe it's just that I came late to the story to begin with, and your updates have been pretty sparse, but it seems like his character is still pretty fluid- like you're still playing around with different aspects and it's not a whole picture yet.  Just something to think about.

Actually, he's not working for them, I don't think that I hinted at that at all ever, , why do you think that, I definitely don't want to be construing that.?
And yes, at times he is proud of his abilities, but he also hates them, he's pretty complex in  a lot of ways, I'm having trouble getting a 'whole picture' of his character. It's quite hard, he surprises me at every turn.

Sorry if I went on a bit there, I just wanted to correct some of your misconceptions( not defending my writing, I just want you to know for future references  )

[RavenstarRHJF]

Actually, he's not working for them, I don't think that I hinted at that at all ever, , why do you think that, I definitely don't want to be construing that.?

Whoops!  My bad.  I misremembered.  Sorry!

[Renoard]

I just can't feel on Kale's side in this.  He seems like a monster, and the poor thieves just got caught up robbing a corpse.

It didn't make sense that if he could just tear the razor wire out on day four that he couldn't have done it when the "servant" came the first time.  Why didn't he just play sick to entice the man into the cell then take his soul, or tear off the hood then do something similar.  Seems out of character and hard to believe.

If it's out of character to torture him, I don't get the whole sewing the hood on with wire a fairly sadistic act.  Also, with his strength why couldn't he tear the fabric and let it fall as a collar around his neck?

It's a decent piece of plotting, but I think you need to rework the details and consider things from Kale's perspective.  So far he's just coming across as an arrogant, predatory jerk with a juvenile obsession with the wrongs done him, who needs killing for the good of humanity.

[Frog]

Don't worry Hamster! Kale or no Kale, I have not abandoned you! Though you might wish I would by the end of this....
Thoughts While Reading:

"He could sense other bodies around him,"

If he's being robbed, I would think he be able to 'feel' them rather than wasting his time 'sensing' for them.

"he knew men who had died from doing as much."

Because he killed them?

"The sleep had refreshed him, but he still felt exhausted from the nightmares,"

Your contradicting yourself. Which is it?

"One of them kicked his outstretched legs, and Kale inwardly winced at the jingling discs within."

No idea what your trying to say there.

"The thief dropped down to his knees and began to tug off Kale’s left boot."

They are pulling off his boot, and they thought he would still be asleep? They didn't graduate at the top of thief school did they?

"The boot flew off his foot, but Kale didn’t care, he was already pounding his fist into the other’s throat, followed by a quick elbow to the back of his head."

Yes, he's killing everyone again, but there is some nice images there. I could pick out some more, but I won't because I am evil and like picking out the bad stuff.

Your overdoing the 'it's a kid, and he's threatening me' joke. To be honest, I just feel sorry for the both of them.

“Gods, I hate myself,” he muttered beneath his breath."

So do I! No sympathy points for our buddy Kail yet I'm afraid. Still hate him.

I can understand a thirteen year-old boy being a bit over zealousness, but less is more when it comes to all the swaring, especially when your making them up.I am not seeing it adding much to your story at this point, just giving you a lot of needless adjectives.

"Kale managed to mutter before something hard crashed into his head, and blackness cascaded down upon his thoughts."

That seemed a bit to easy. Problem with making uber buff characters is you have to be a bit more creative later if you want to make their defeat believable.

"No one kept Kale Vor’Traan as a prisoner."

He sounds as cocky as the thief boy when you have him announce his name and credentials over and over again. We got it already.

Now here is a scene where I would really like to feel sorry for our buddy Kale, but I just can't do it. He kills people for fun, so having him whine about someone doing the same seems like just that: him whining.

Internal thoughts go long.

I have problems with hood, and problems with his sticking around so long only to escape without trouble later.

Overall impression:
Okay, actions of the characters are still coming off a bit random to me as I haven't seen any of it pull together to a centralized plot yet, but maybe these new captors we are about to meet will help me out. I'm interested anyway, which is a good complement from me considering how much trouble I have with Kale overall. Just don't care about the guy at all yet. Medically, I have issues with the hood, but most of them have already been brought out. Mostly, I just wonder why he was sitting around for so long before his escape attempt that we all saw coming. I liked a lot of your images and action, but I'd take some time to work on the dialogue some more.
Thanks for the update, Hamster!

[Hamster]

Hey Renoard and Frog,

Thanks for your comments, really helpful stuff 

Don't worry Hamster! Kale or no Kale, I have not abandoned you! Though you might wish I would by the end of this....

Of course not Frog, I love your advice whether or not you tear my stuff to shreds ( and I think I definitely needed some tearing up this time  )



Quote
"The sleep had refreshed him, but he still felt exhausted from the nightmares,"
Your contradicting yourself. Which is it?

He's physically refreshed but mentally exhausted, hopefully that makes sense.

I'd take some time to work on the dialogue some more.

Haha, yes, my dialogue leaves a lot to be desired, I will definitely work on that more. I'll probably cut out most of the swearing by the thief, it overdoes it, but it was slightly humourous to write.

Quote
“Gods, I hate myself,” he muttered beneath his breath."
So do I! No sympathy points for our buddy Kail yet I'm afraid. Still hate him.

He kills people for fun,

Actually, Kale does not have fun kiling, so I think I must have messed up somewhere with his character...

So far he's just coming across as an arrogant, predatory jerk with a juvenile obsession with the wrongs done him, who needs killing for the good of humanity.

Well, both of you are quite accurate in your accessment of Kale's character, and I think this is the last straw that's got me wondering if I should revamp his character. See, I meant to make him an arrogant predatory jerk, and then get more likable and sympathetic as the plot progresses ( yes Frog, beleive it or not, I do have an overall plot that connects all of it  ) But I'm wondering, would you as the reader actually read the book long enough to see him change, cause I'm getting the vibe that if you read the first hundred pages or so with Kale as he is then the reader would probably stop without getting to see the change, which I can totally understand.

So, do you guys think that I should rework Kale's character to be less arrogant, predatory, jerkish, and hatable? I definitely could do it, so I'd like your guys' opinions on changing his character(while keeping his background and profession the same).

Again, thanks alot for your comments!

[Frog]

And now it is time for another rousing addiction of unsolicited advice by Frog:

For me, personally, it would be hard for me to get this far on my own w/o you doing something more with Kale's character, but what you do with him is really up to you. Remember there is a big difference between having a sympathetic/interesting/likable character and having a 'good' or 'nice' character. There are plenty of 'good' characters that annoy me to no end, so I wouldn't worry about trying to put Kale into that category. I think what I need most from him is a motive/goal and a little more personality.

All good stories start with a 'hero' that wants something (not my words, but I use them), so what does Kale want? Even Mr. Scrooge had a motive. He liked money. I like money sometimes too, so I can relate to him enough to get me through to his redemption story. Kale can still be a 'predatory jerk' as long as he is a 'predatory jerk' with a mission. So what does Kale want from life and what purpose does his violence serve? Is he out for revenge and the souls somehow strengthen him? Is he in it for the money or an ethnic cleansing campaign? Is he protecting someone/himself? I don't necessarily have to agree with his reasons, but I do need to understand them and so far it all seems a bit random as Kale wanders from one fight to another. You hint that there might be a reason (something to do with a Soultakers powers and grief over his wife I am sure), but you haven't really told us what it is and I find that very frustrating.

Added to that are lines like this:

Quote
“Gods, I hate myself,” he muttered beneath his breath."
So do I! No sympathy points for our buddy Kale yet I'm afraid. Still hate him.

It's so hard to like even a 'good' character that doesn't like themselves. You have your character say that they are awful and useless, and guess what, I tend to agree with them because I am a gullible idiot reader and I believe the author when they write something. This probably was an attempt to make him more sympathic by giving him some remorse, but to me it just seems to say 'he knows it is wrong and I know it is wrong, so why in the world is he doing it?' And Kale makes it even more difficult because it is so easy to see his faults and you haven't given him a lot of redeeming qualities. Not even a sense of humor, which I see as a deep tragedy. I can forgive a character almost anything as long as they make me laugh.

So that's it from me again. Please understand that I am not trying to tell you what to do. I have faith that you can write a good story with interesting and complex characters on your own. I just hope you can take my comments as a way to kick start your own ideas and find your own solution. Good luck!

[Renoard]

I'd suggest a narrowing of the options.  As he is he's unsympathetic.  If you combined any 2 choices out of the list of juvenile, obsessed, predatory, and arrogant, it would be easier to accept that he's going somewhere as the lead/MC.  But you'd have to demonstrate some likable traits to give people something to hold onto.  You can have a character that starts out like this and develop him into a likable hero, but in these early chapters you'd have to make him the villain/antagonist and pit him against a more likable character that is temporarily the center of things.

[Silk]

Why is Kale so shocked to see that it's a young person threatening him? Young people have the same capability for dishonesty and violence that older people do... and I imagine Kale should know that.

"...he was most likely going to have to kill the two of them. He steeled himself to do the deed."

Okay, here we have... Kale killing more people. Again. As I think Reaves mentioned in an earlier submission, we've seen a lot of Kale killing people, and I'd rather like to see him do something else for once. Besides, why is he so determined to kill the kid, especially if he doesn't want to do it? He ought to be able to send this kid scurrying off with his tail between his legs easily enough.

I'll add my voice to the chorus: Still not really feeling Kale as a symathetic character. And as Frog has said, since I don't know what he wants, what he's trying to accomplish, that makes it a bit hard to connect with him on any level.

Hoping this capture thing is going to lead up to something that helps us put the bigger picture in place.