Author Topic: What do you think of Joseph Smith?  (Read 7550 times)

Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2009, 01:55:48 AM »
Well you particularly cited items that are make or break, which you disagree with.  I think you know what objections are and are just trying to prolong a debate I don't really want to have here.  I didn't join this forum to sit by while others attack, the Bible or to engage in these debates over the validity of Mormonism.  Let me put it to you this way, I even know the ceremony for confirming someone as a member of the "Aronic" priesthood.  I've had these arguments with Stake-Holders and Bishops.  No, I've never been a Mormon but some secrets aren't all that secret.

I really don't want to continue hashing old ground
the short list is:
The Doctrine of God head and the position Ryos cited
The very many items of Masonic ritual and dogma that have been subsumed into the LDS
The whole body of doctrines surrounding the "Prophet"
The claim that the book of Mormon is scripture

These are non-negotiable issues for everyone outside the the LDS Arc.  If you've been lead to believe otherwise I assure you, you've been lied to.  The most inclusive group of all, the RCC would pretend to accept Mormons as brothers and sisters, all the while attempting to remind you that the Prophet is subject to the Pope. We don't accept the Papacy any more than LDS, I just pointing out to you that slippery redefinitions are not the exclusive purview of Elders on Mission. :)

I really don't want to offend you. But this argument, "We're all Christians because," is just not going anywhere.  Again I think this thread should have been locked, but if the one who started it is really just a Mormon pretending to troll in order to provide a venue for this kind of debate, then I'm pretty disappointed.  That's a fairly dishonest move and frankly the means justify the outcome not vice versa. ;P

If you don't believe that the Father is the God of the old testament, If you don't believe that the humanity of Jesus is distinct from his Divinity, and if you don't believe that Jesus sonship was unique in all creation, then you are simply not a Christian.  This is the up shot of John chapter one, which is a tractate against all forms of gnosticism, including Mormonism.  Again I don't say this to offend anyone, just to answer Peter's question.  I can love you for your sincerity and moral stance and be sad for your choice of faith, and afraid for you when you succeed in converting a Christian or a Jew.  But I can't agree with you.  I think Ryan had the right idea a bit ago.  Work together where we don't get in each other's way. ;P
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2009, 02:11:57 AM »
The biggest difference between the other denominations and the mormon church is the argument of Adam's importance...the baptist and methodist (the only to denominations i have been a part of) believe his only significance is that he was the first man and help bring about original sin...also the catholics have the apocrapha and that is not part of the canon and yet they are still recognized as christians



P.S. i have no disdain for any belief structure that isn't fanatical and considering i am a Deist, a branch of Theism, i really don't care about the argument between the denominations...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 02:14:13 AM by Champion Kaz »
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2009, 02:31:14 AM »
The ceremony of conferring the Aaronic Priesthood? This is nothing secret and happens to most LDS boys when they are 12 years old, usually during a Sunday meeting at a chapel, with their family members sitting in the room. A priesthood holder puts their hands on the boy's head and says something like "[Person's name], by the power of the Holy [Aaronic or Melchizedek] Priesthood that I hold, I lay my hands upon your head and confer upon you the Aaronic priesthood and ordain you to the office of deacon in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and this I do in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." It's not a big secret and anyone who wants to sit in can.

Jesus said in John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am." This was basically saying that he was Jehovah. But from our point of view it really doesn't matter that Jesus was talking in the Old Testament rather than His Father because Jesus only does the will of the Father. So whether it was Jesus speaking or the Father speaking in the Old Testament, they would have said the same thing. But still, if you're trinitarian and believe Jesus was his own father, I don't understand the objection here. It's like you're saying "that you believe Jesus was the God of the Old Testament proves you are not Christian," yet you also believe he is, as a member of the Trinity, God, and therefore the God of the Old Testament. Surely you're not saying that Jesus was not around before his mortal birth.

Sure, I believe the humanity of Jesus is distinct from his divinity in that he was born with a mortal body but was divine before, during, and after his mortal incarnation—and him being both the spiritual and physical Son of God was unique in all creation.

I realize that you've been taught that humanity cannot understand and make logical sense out of the doctrine of the trinity. We believe that it should make logical sense and therefore our version of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) does make logical sense. We believe that they're three distinct individuals and they are one in purpose. That is a major difference between Mormons and the rest of Christianity. But in our point of view, just because we believe in a version of the Godhead that makes logical sense to us doesn't mean we don't believe Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God who saved the world.

But if you didn't want to have this discussion, I'm not sure why you posted in this thread.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 02:33:29 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2009, 02:33:12 AM »
Sorry Kaz, you are prolonging this but you are wrong.  The RCC are the only Catholics that give the Apocrypha any credence, and frankly that don't view it as scripture.  They take it as a form of text book but not scriptural.  Yes they include the OT apocrypha between the covers, but only because the Septuagint did the same.

Anglicans, Episcopalians and Lutherans are among the catholics that reject the apocrypha as more than historically significant fiction.

I'm done.
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2009, 03:14:02 AM »
Quote
But if you didn't want to have this discussion, I'm not sure why you posted in this thread.
Frankly it was to protect people who might read an unchallenged attack on the truth of the New Testament. I just felt that dogmatic statements ridiculing the position of the vast majority of those who identify themselves with Christ should go unchallenged. So I thought I'd just insert a dissenting opinion and let it drop.  It saddens me that you aren't willing to do likewise.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 04:50:04 AM by Renoard »
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Andrew the Great

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2009, 04:44:21 AM »
Ummm.... I didn't see anyone attacking the truth of the New Testament. Mormons believe the New Testament contains important doctrines too. And I didn't see any ridiculing. In fact, all I've seen is discussion on why various Mormon doctrines make them either Christian or not. 

Forgive me Renoard, but you keep saying that you don't want to give offense and we should all just agree to disagree. Then you state your opinion as though it's the only possible truth. I can respect that, but if you believe that your view is the only true one, at least allow those Mormons (myself included) who have posted the same opportunity. As soon as we make any statement of Mormon Doctrine (which is, by the way, the subject of this thread) or correct or clarify a point that you made, you immediately post a reply stating why it can't be true or changing to a new belief of yours. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you keep expressing your opinions. I find them interesting, and they help me understand where you are coming from a bit more. But please, if you're going to keep posting in this thread, don't get angry at others for doing so. It takes two to tango.
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2009, 04:54:35 AM »
I think you've misread the thread Andrew. I'm not angry. Not sure why you think so.  And you've got it backwards.  The fact I didn't accept the idea that my perspective is wrong and asked (4 times) if we could agree to disagree was what was not being given respect. :D
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2009, 05:40:26 AM »
Yeah...... I don't see any attack on the truth of the New Testament anywhere in this thread, especially not before your first religious-arguing post in this thread. The thread was pretty tame before then. Seems to me you started the arguing. But it doesn't really matter who started it, if no one wants to continue.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 05:46:42 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2009, 06:09:54 AM »
Peter I want to apologize to you.  I have reread the thread and my first post was a bit out of left field.  I was writing my first post while you and Kaz were settling your misunderstanding.  So Mine slipped in out of order and not really on topic.  It would appear I did start the whole debate, and because I hadn't read carefully enough I posted a snark at you as well.  That was not called for.

Mice and men and all that. . .

I was unaware of the lost pages issue prior to this thread so I did at least learn one thing. :P
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2009, 06:33:31 AM »
No hard feelings then.

It's interesting how daman's threads that survived have developed though—the Joseph Smith thread is not about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon thread is not about the Book of Mormon, and the Second Wife thread is not about polygamy (at least anymore). (By the way, we're pretty sure he is a returned banned troll formerly known as UtopiaGreen01 a few months ago, most likely not LDS. He just likes to troll wherever he goes—for example, some of his posts over at Yahoo Answers are incredible.)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 06:35:28 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2009, 06:41:37 AM »
I see that.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2009, 07:29:32 AM »
Quote
Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ.


This is absolutely incorrect.  They believe Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger (nabi & rasul), but they reject any claims that he was divine, the Christ, crucified & resurrected, or otherwise greater than the Prophet Muhammad.

Quote
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost who participated in creation.
He indwells the believer and baptizes in power to perform miracles and service.
He counsels the broken heart and heals the broken mind.
He is in all and through all establishing the community of true believers.
He gives evidence of those who believe by conferring the power to bind and exile demons,
speak with unknown tongues,
bring miraculous healing to the sick,
and stand proof against poison.

I believe in the community of saints who are the true believers past and present;
living and dead,
forgiveness of sins,
resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

I believe few Mormons would have problems agreeing to this statement, though the bit about "proof against poison" seems a bizarre inclusion:  certainly it's in the scriptures, but so are a number of other wonderful miracles not mentioned.  God certainly isn't limited to the things you have listed there.


I am among those who don't see any attack on the New Testament.  What I do see is a lot of hostility which had been beginning to come out of you, Renoard (which has heretofore been absent), and I'm concerned that Ookla might have been beginning to follow suit.

It's perfectly okay for us to discuss this stuff rationally, and express our beliefs politely and tolerantly.  It's possible that St. E. would have already locked this thread, but if you folks can stay polite, I'll keep it open.

We all already know that most Christian sects fail to see eye-to-eye on all doctrines.  Some find these doctrinal differences much more significant than others.  Generally, it is unhelpful to rehash all those differences here, particularly if one feels that they are getting defensive, offended, or angry.

But, of course, it's perfectly fine to ask questions when you do not understand something, or to try to clarify when you feel that your view has been misrepresented.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 07:50:00 AM by The Jade Knight »
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ErikHolmes

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2009, 08:53:19 AM »
Quote
IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .
Of course that's not a very sound opinion Erik.  Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ. And a Muslim would be to first to take offense if you called them Christian.  There are a whole list of qualifying distinctives that include or exclude people from being Christian.

Ok, let me make it more clear as to what I believe:

Matthew 16:16 (King James Version)

 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Anyone who agrees with Peter on that statement, in my book, is a Christian. (Ya, ya, I know there might be a few wacky exceptions but let's not get too crazy here).

Belief and alliance are not quite the same thing. ;D
James 2:17-19 is pretty clear on that.
Quote
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

While I agree with what you are saying, I've talked to other Christians that might not. I have a friend that believes 100% that anyone who claims they believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. No mater how many sucka's they've had to bust a cap in cause they owed them fifty dollas. If they've said the words, they are in the clear.

When your brother is in jail cause he DID bust a cap in someone for fifty dollars, its probably a comforting belief to have.

Now, I could tell my friend that he's not really a Christian, but beyond it just not being polite, I just think there are better ways to approach differences of opinion on religion.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2009, 09:14:51 AM »
That's a very interesting way to approach it, Erik.  The whole "mote in the eye" bit, eh?
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2009, 06:50:54 PM »
Jade, in Islam, Jesus (Isa) is still known as al-Masīḥ (the messiah, anointed one) so technically they do believe he was small-c "christ." They also believe in his virgin birth. Beyond that you're right though, but I think Renoard already knew all those facts and was just focusing on the al-Masīḥ thing.

Let me introduce a related subject. For example, the following news release:

Quote
A recent news story referred to fugitive Warren Jeffs as a “fundamentalist Mormon” and “leader of a polygamist breakaway Mormon sect.”

Polygamist groups in Utah, Arizona or Texas have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To refer to them as “Mormon” is inaccurate.

Mormon is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church discontinued polygamy more than a century ago. No members of the Church today can enter into polygamy without being excommunicated.

When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, terms such as those given in the first paragraph above are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: "The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other ... churches that resulted from the split after (Joseph) Smith's death."
Yes, "Mormon" is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But is it not fair to allow anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is scripture and self-identifies as Mormon to call themselves Mormon? If we want to be called Christians but don't allow anyone else to call themselves Mormons, that seems kind of contradictory. I know it would make things more complicated ("I'm a Mormon." "Oh? What kind?") but it seems fair to me.

Though admittedly I don't know if any of the people in the breakaway groups want to still be called Mormons.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 07:03:54 PM by Ookla The Mok »
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