Author Topic: What do you think of Joseph Smith?  (Read 4253 times)

ryos

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 09:23:10 PM »
Virtually christians will argue that the book of mormon was not written by the original prophets/ disciples and instead written at a later date and has no relation to the canon.

Ah. See, that actually makes sense. It would have been much simpler if you'd just said "I don't believe the Book of Mormon is true" from the beginning.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2009, 10:07:06 PM »
woopsy daisy.... :-[
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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2009, 10:22:20 PM »
Kaz is a little vague on his Irvingite/Baptist catechism but he is trying to cite a historical fact in a slightly inarticulate way. :P  It is a fact, and I doubt a surprise to anyone who has been on a Mormon mission, that the dogma of every "denomination" or sect that is not a part of the LDS arc (i.e. CJCLDS, RCJDLDS and splinter sects that claim association with Smith and Young) reject the assertion that LDS are Christians.  The reason is that they feel that the canon of Scripture was closed at the ecumenical council where the canon was set. Further the belief is based on the passage in Galations 1:6-9
Quote
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The common understanding is that this includes Mormans, Druze, Swedenborgians, Muslims, B'hai and any other group which tries to marry the bible with other texts.

Not meaning to start that debate, but it looked to me like Ookla was playing dumb, pretending not to know what Kaz was trying to say and that is a little dishonest. ;)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 10:31:56 PM by Renoard »
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ErikHolmes

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 10:26:37 PM »
Virtually christians will argue that the book of mormon was not written by the original prophets/ disciples and instead written at a later date and has no relation to the canon.

Well, Mormons wouldn't even disagree with part of that statement.

The Book of Mormon was written by prophets on the American continent who taught about Christ at the same time that the disciples in Jerusalem were.

That it has no relation to the canon . . . THAT we would argue.
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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 10:45:12 PM »
Quote
It is a fact, and I doubt a surprise to anyone who has been on a Mormon mission, that the dogma of every "denomination" or sect that is not a part of the LDS arc (i.e. CJCLDS, RCJDLDS and splinter sects that claim association with Smith and Young) reject the assertion that LDS are Christians.

I do not believe this is true.  It is the dogma of many denominations, yes, but not of all.  There are other Chrisitan groups which recognize the Christianity of the Latter-day Saints.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 10:45:44 PM »
Renoard, the point is that Kaz said he disagreed with me, but I didn't really say anything in my post for him to disagree with. I didn't even say the Book of Mormon was scripture. (Though that is what I believe.)

All I was talking about was the lost 116 pages of manuscript and how they related to the rest of the book. But I'm not even sure Kaz knows the story about the lost 116 pages of manuscript. (Which is, in short, when Joseph Smith started translating the book, Martin Harris worked as his scribe, and Martin's wife wanted to see the pages, so Joseph gave them to Martin and they got lost. That part of the story in the Book of Mormon, the beginning of the book, had to be covered again when Joseph got to the end of the book, and the claim in the Book of Mormon is that this section of the history was presented in two different books within the Golden Plates, so Joseph used the other section instead of retranslating the part that went into the 116 pages that were lost.)

LDS believe that the gospel we preach is the gospel Christ preached and the Book of Mormon is another testament of Christ. And that God himself, and his prophets, never said there would be no more scripture or revelation from heaven, and that what constitutes scripture is not something that should be decided by committee. But anyway the belief in extracanonical scripture is not the most commonly cited reason other Christians claim Mormons aren't Christian. The most common reason I've heard is that Mormons aren't Christian because we don't believe in the classical Trinity, that Jesus is his own father. And LDS counter that by saying that idea isn't in the Bible anyway.

But this has been done to death in other threads.

And Jade said right in the second post, "many people here would say yes, many would say no."
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ErikHolmes

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 11:15:34 PM »
Kaz is a little vague on his Irvingite/Baptist catechism but he is trying to cite a historical fact in a slightly inarticulate way. :P  It is a fact, and I doubt a surprise to anyone who has been on a Mormon mission, that the dogma of every "denomination" or sect that is not a part of the LDS arc (i.e. CJCLDS, RCJDLDS and splinter sects that claim association with Smith and Young) reject the assertion that LDS are Christians.  The reason is that they feel that the canon of Scripture was closed at the ecumenical council where the canon was set. Further the belief is based on the passage in Galations 1:6-9
Quote
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The common understanding is that this includes Mormans, Druze, Swedenborgians, Muslims, B'hai and any other group which tries to marry the bible with other texts.

The fact that anyone could call a church called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" not Christian has always been funny to me. IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .

My first thought when you posted the above scripture was:

That's fine. We believe we preach the exact same gospel that Paul would have preached to them at that time anyway.

I think it's also fairly well documented that the scripture quoted above was an Epistle from Paul specifically for the Galatians, who were being taught that they needed to follow the law of Moses, and not what he was teaching them (mainly having to due with circumcision).

Mormons haven't been forcing circumcision on anyone either, so I think we are in there clear there too   ;D

Not meaning to start that debate, but it looked to me like Ookla was playing dumb, pretending not to know what Kaz was trying to say and that is a little dishonest. ;)

In Ookla's defense, I hardly think she was being dishonest. What Kaz was saying made little sense IMO. Ookla made a comment about pages missing from the Book of Mormon and about how a section in the Book of Mormon was missing. Then Kaz jumped in and said he disagreed due to the fact that he was a christian? He's disagreeing that the summary is missing from the book of Mosiah?
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2009, 12:09:40 AM »
Again, I don't think Kaz was challenging the issue of the 115 pages, I think he was expressing a general disdain for all things Mormon.  I wasn't defending his position, just clarifying because a lot of vagaries were being thrown around.

Quote
IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .
Of course that's not a very sound opinion Erik.  Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ. And a Muslim would be to first to take offense if you called them Christian.  There are a whole list of qualifying distinctives that include or exclude people from being Christian.

Belief and alliance are not quite the same thing. ;D
James 2:17-19 is pretty clear on that.
Quote
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Eleaneth

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2009, 12:26:45 AM »
Yeah. That's one of the biggest difference between Mormons and other Christian churches--that Christians usually see Christianity as beginning with Christ and the doctrine being complete when the Bible was written and compiled.
EDIT: Of course, most Christians believe that people before Christ looked forward to a Messiah. But I don't think most Christians believe that anyone before Christ actually understood that the Messiah would be the Son of God and would save the repentant from their sins.

In contrast, Mormons see Christianity as beginning with Adam. We believe that many prophets throughout the world's history have taught plainly that Jesus Christ would come, but that the knowledge of Christ and His gospel was repeatedly lost. Whenever a prophet came, they used old scripture and also taught new things that had been forgotten. That's what John the Baptist, Christ, and His followers did in the New Testament. That's what Moses did. And that's what Joseph Smith did.

Mormons in general accept that most Christians have a different view, but they are always confused and sometimes offended when others call them unChristian. Joseph Smith wrote, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost... we believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." (Note "may be saved," not "will be saved." Important difference.) The real name of the "Mormon" church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". We believe that faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel.

Quote
IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .
Of course that's not a very sound opinion Erik.  Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ. And a Muslim would be to first to take offense if you called them Christian.  There are a whole list of qualifying distinctives that include or exclude people from being Christian.

Okay, to be more specific, a Christian is one who believes that Jesus is the Christ (aka. the Messiah), AND that He is the Son of God, AND that we can only be saved from our sins through His grace. Mormons believe all of those things.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 12:39:55 AM by Eleaneth »
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2009, 12:42:15 AM »
Oh I understand that, on the other hand those of my bent believe the following to be the minimum standard for authentic Christianity.  We also believe that any additions to the God-head are a mark of not being un-Christian in the sense of Character, but different from Christian in the sense of substance.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost who participated in creation.
He indwells the believer and baptizes in power to perform miracles and service.
He counsels the broken heart and heals the broken mind.
He is in all and through all establishing the community of true believers.
He gives evidence of those who believe by conferring the power to bind and exile demons,
speak with unknown tongues,
bring miraculous healing to the sick,
and stand proof against poison.

I believe in the community of saints who are the true believers past and present;
living and dead,
forgiveness of sins,
resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.
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ryos

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2009, 12:51:58 AM »
I feel an Orson Scott Card quote coming on...

Quote
Let me save everybody a lot of time. If by "Christian" you mean "believes in the version of God and Christ taught in the Nicene Creed," then absolutely not. Right from the start, the founding prophet of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, rejected that view of God as a fantasy.

In other words, most people who say that Mormons aren't Christians do so because they think we don't believe in the same God, or the same Christ. And, in fact, most mormons would agree with that sentiment.

Of course, if we're being fair, then in the view of LDS and applying that very same standard that the rest of Christendom applies to us, we are the only Christians. Maybe, instead of trying to argue with people who say Mormons aren't Christians, we should just reply, "Right back at you." ;)

What puzzles me is the inability of so many of my Christian brethren to let this go. Doctrinal differences aside, Mormons and Christians share most of the same morals and most of the same goals. We should be able to work and live peacefully together, without this same argument constantly cropping up.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 01:00:15 AM by ryos »
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2009, 12:58:23 AM »
That would be why I suggested locking this thread last night. ;P
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2009, 12:59:11 AM »
You're just demonstrating Renoard's "whole list of qualifiers," Eleaneth. :) I don't believe the list of qualifiers is very long—that he's the Son of God, was crucified and resurrected, and made the atonement making him the savior of mankind—that's enough for me and enough for a lot of Christians.

Interesting that you quote those James verses, Renoard, since they're LDS favorites. And they demonstrate that another way to tell a Christian is if they follow the teachings of Christ.

Also, ErikHolmes, I am a guy.

Oh I understand that, on the other hand those of my bent believe the following to be the minimum standard for authentic Christianity.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost who participated in creation.
He indwells the believer and baptizes in power to perform miracles and service.
He counsels the broken heart and heals the broken mind.
He is in all and through all establishing the community of true believers.
He gives evidence of those who believe by conferring the power to bind and exile demons,
speak with unknown tongues,
bring miraculous healing to the sick,
and stand proof against poison.

I believe in the community of saints who are the true believers past and present;
living and dead,
forgiveness of sins,
resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.
Hmm, well, Mormons believe all those words, except that we believe these parts:
Quote
creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name
refer to Jesus rather than God the Father—that God the Father directed his son Jesus (also known as Jehovah/I Am) to create the heaven and the earth.

Also, Mormons don't add anything to the Godhead beyond the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, so I'm not sure what your issue is with us.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 01:05:44 AM by Ookla The Mok »
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Renoard

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2009, 01:15:41 AM »
Naw.  I didn't say I had a problem with Mormons, just that I don't believe the Book of Mormon or the Doctrines that arise from it are consistent with Christianity.  As I saw it, since others were summarizing with a statement of faith and distinctives I'd add mine.  Does this make you feel attacked? it wasn't intended to.

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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2009, 01:21:15 AM »
Hmm, which doctrines that arise from the Book of Mormon do you believe are inconsistent with Christianity? Have you read it?

I didn't say I felt attacked, and I don't. I just asked what your issue was (which made you think we weren't Christians in substance) since we met the criteria you listed.
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