Author Topic: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****  (Read 335853 times)

firstRainbowRose

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #405 on: November 04, 2008, 05:10:38 AM »
Is that really how it's spelt?  I always thought it was different.  *shrug*  I guess I never really paid attention to that.  I just read the information.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« Reply #406 on: November 04, 2008, 06:53:51 AM »
It's Mahonri Moriancumer, though leaving out the "e" at the end might make it look even more Jaredite-authentic.

Anyway, Forloc, if you're just asking if Brandon is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the answer is yes.

Yes, one of them will allow you to burn away all of someone else's metals while the other allows you to make someone else have a similar effect to burning Duralumin.
That doesn't follow the patterns of the other metals.   If you notice the way metals work, one pair effects people, the other pair effects metals.   For instance, Tin and Pewter effect people, Iron and Steel effect metal.   Brass and Zinc effect people, Copper and Bronze effect metal.   Gold and Electrum effect people, I'm of the opinion that Atium and Malatium don't belong on this table for many reasons, one of which is because they also effect people and not metal.   Aluminum and Duralumin effect metal, the other pair should effect people directly.   You'll notice that also tin and pewter are on the inside of the circle and effect people, brass and zinc are on the outside, gold and electrum are on the inside, chromium and nicrosil are on the outside.   This table is very organized and follows many patterns.   What you claim does not follow the patterns.
Shadowkiller, that analysis of the metals is not the way the characters in the book understand them, and while Brandon has said that the characters are getting some things wrong in their classification system, he hasn't given any indication that your analysis is correct. There are also inconsistencies in your analysis. Internal metals: Tin, Pewter, Copper, Bronze, Gold, Electrum, Aluminum, Duralumin. Those are all on the inside of the circle, yet half of them are what you say effect metals and half aren't. If you're suggesting that the metal-effectors alternate between inside and outside the circle—well, the order of the metal quadrants around the circle is arbitrary as far as I could tell.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 07:10:33 AM by Mok Apple Pie »
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AvalonDreamer

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« Reply #407 on: November 04, 2008, 07:33:50 AM »
I think we need to remodel the chart on our own to fit the patterns we see. Something like Left Half = Metallic/Right Half = Organic, Top = Base Metals/Bottom = High Metals, Inner ring = Pulling/Outer = Pushing, then the First Clockwise of each sector could be Internal, and the second External. Then again... that might be what's been done... I don't have a table on hand.

The way the pattern I see sits, Chromium and Nicrosil would effect metals, I've just been doubting the staunchly parallel, 1:1 of "this one does to them, what it's neighbor does to you" of Aluminum and Chromium. THAT doesn't fit. Brass and Zinc don't make other people stronger or have better senses, and Copper and Bronze don't make metal push and pull away from other people. Why should that be the case here?
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Shadowkiller

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« Reply #408 on: November 04, 2008, 08:34:47 AM »
Shadowkiller, that analysis of the metals is not the way the characters in the book understand them, and while Brandon has said that the characters are getting some things wrong in their classification system, he hasn't given any indication that your analysis is correct. There are also inconsistencies in your analysis. Internal metals: Tin, Pewter, Copper, Bronze, Gold, Electrum, Aluminum, Duralumin. Those are all on the inside of the circle, yet half of them are what you say effect metals and half aren't. If you're suggesting that the metal-effectors alternate between inside and outside the circle—well, the order of the metal quadrants around the circle is arbitrary as far as I could tell.
He hasn't even seen my classification as far as I can tell as he hasn't been around in quite a while(at least not posted on this topic).   I fully believe that the analysis in the book and on the poster is directly related to what the characters see and that they in fact DO have it wrong.   I think Brandon is misleading us by giving us what the characters see and not his true classification system.   I may be totally wrong, I admit, but Brandon challenged us to figure it out ourselves and I think we've got it wrong too.   I want to entirely reclassify the whole list.

I don't like the classification Internal and External.   If you're talking in relation to the circle, that's fine, but if you're talking about effects, that's another descriptor that Brandon gave us in book 1 that I believe is misleading.   For instance, its my opinion that all the mental metals are external.   Zinc and Brass are obvious but Copper and Bronze are less so.   With Bronze you sense other peoples pulses.   I can't remember offhand if you can sense your own.   With Copper, you may cloud yourself, but you also cloud everyone around you.   If you think about it, you just happen to be in the cloud cause it is centered on you but it is entirely external to you.   Tin and Pewter are very much internal metals as they both effect you and only you.   Aluminum and Duralumin are also very much internal as they also effect you and only you... and your metals.

I think the entire chart is wrong and its done purposefully.   Maybe I'm reading more into what Brandon is doing than he intended, but its fun so I'm gonna keep doing it till he comes here and sets me down himself :).

Mellington the loony Gold Misting

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #409 on: November 04, 2008, 06:47:10 PM »
SK:  I'm not big on some of the terms used in the first book...but they serve to organize the data until we get ACCURATE descriptions!

We already know that Brandon is intentionally holding AT LEAST two metals back (the REAL second set of "Temporal" metals). 
Who knows what else he's keeping back.  Maybe silver is useful but in a totally unexpected manner unknown to Mistborn.

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« Reply #410 on: November 04, 2008, 08:11:00 PM »
I doubt Silver is useful... It's combined with gold for electrum, so I doubt that it's paired with gold as a Temporal, and from the chart we have now, it's complete beyond those last two.

What about Platnium, Mercury, or... Has anyone bothered looking at the periodic table and trying to find a relationship with the base metals on it?
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Shadowkiller

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« Reply #411 on: November 04, 2008, 08:13:32 PM »
What about Platnium, Mercury, or... Has anyone bothered looking at the periodic table and trying to find a relationship with the base metals on it?
In the process of putting together the table.   Preliminary results show little relationship on the table itself.
http://burntoutcomic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Metals

AvalonDreamer

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« Reply #412 on: November 04, 2008, 08:15:33 PM »
Tungsten, Titanium, Cobalt, and Platnium are my candidates... I think I see a bit of a pattern with them.
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Czanos

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #413 on: November 04, 2008, 09:19:55 PM »
Okay, Allomantic metals. Let's start with a reference table for those who may be just joining the conversation.

Physical Metals:

Iron: External Pulling metal. Pulls external metals to the Allomancer. Simple enough.
Steel: External Pushing metal. Same as iron, but swapped.

Tin: Internal Pulling metal. Increases bodily input functions, Pulling out more sensitivity.
Pewter: Internal Pushing metal. Increases bodily output functions, Pushing the body further.
(Notes: Tin and Pewter do balance out, as pewter provides a counterpoint to tin's senses, and tin provides a counter to pewter's lack of feeling.)

Mental Metals:

Zinc: External Pulling metal. Pulls on the emotions of others, inflaming passions.
Brass: External Pushing metal. Pushes on the emotions of others, dampening passions.

Copper: Internal Pulling metal. Pulls tight your area in the fabric of creation. This prevents Allomantic pulses and mental Allomancy.
Bronze: Internal Pushing metal. Pushes open the awareness to the fabric of creation. (Or perhaps Pushes out an Allomantic echo pulse.) Lets an Allomancer hear ripples in the fabric.
(Notes: Copper, at least, is indeed an internal metal. Vin can feel a slight buzzing within herself when she burns it, as evidenced in The Final Empire. I believe the same is true for bronze.)

Temporal Metals:

Gold: Internal Pulling metal. Pulls an alternate past into the present. 
Electrum: Internal Pushing metal. Pushes out an array of possible futures.

Enhancement Metals:

Chromium: External Pulling metal. Enables an Allomancer to Pull away another Allomancer's metals.
Nicrosil: External Pushing metal. Enables an Allomancer to Push out another Allomancer's metals.

Aluminum: Internal Pulling metal. Pulls away an Allomancer's metals, preventing their use.
Duralumin: Internal Pushing metal. Pushes out an Allomancer's metals, expending them all in one flare.
(Notes:I don't think it's ever been confirmed that the metals themselves are affected, merely their Allomantic effect.)

Shards of Andonalsium:
Lerasium: Bequeaths Allomancy. Alloys create mistings.
Atium: Shows the most probable outcome of a situation. Alloys show different things. (Probably, as witnessed by the gold alloy, malatium.)



The main discrepancy I have with your theories, MellingtonBoots and ShadowKiller, is that Copper and Brass don't affect metals, they affect the Allomancer. This is illustrated in the books, and Brandon even mentioned the fabric of creation in an earlier post in this topic.
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Shadowkiller

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #414 on: November 04, 2008, 09:49:00 PM »
#1: I like where you're going Avalon.   I'm going to vote Platinum for now as that is the one I see the biggest pattern with.   I explained the pattern on my wiki which I linked just above you.

#2:Czanos, that entire table is pretty much located on my website at the link I posted.   It can be edited by anyone who wishes to add anything they see to it.

#3:In reference to your discrepancy, Czanos, they do not effect the Allomancer, they effect and are effected by the metals the Allomancers are using.   If the Allomancer is not burning any metal, Bronze detects nothing.   If the Allomancer is not burning anything, there is no need for a Copper cloud as it protects nothing.   Aluminum doesn't effect the Allomancer at all, just burns off all the metals.   Duralumin, if the Allomancer is not burning any metals, does nothing and only effects the metals the Allomancer IS burning.   Its my opinion that all these cases are very specific to one thing and that is metal.   In both of these groups its allomantic metals, but they are metals none-the-less.   With Iron and Steel, its not necessarily allomantic metals, but it is still metals.   All the other abilities do not involve metals at all.   They don't involve allomancers, they don't involve allomancers metal, they don't involve any metal.   They involve people and very specifically people, whether it be the allomancer themselves or others who may not be allomancers.   That is why I say metal vs people.

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #415 on: November 04, 2008, 10:30:17 PM »

#3:In reference to your discrepancy, Czanos, they do not effect the Allomancer, they effect and are effected by the metals the Allomancers are using.   If the Allomancer is not burning any metal, Bronze detects nothing.   If the Allomancer is not burning anything, there is no need for a Copper cloud as it protects nothing.   Aluminum doesn't effect the Allomancer at all, just burns off all the metals.   Duralumin, if the Allomancer is not burning any metals, does nothing and only effects the metals the Allomancer IS burning.   Its my opinion that all these cases are very specific to one thing and that is metal.   In both of these groups its allomantic metals, but they are metals none-the-less.   With Iron and Steel, its not necessarily allomantic metals, but it is still metals.   All the other abilities do not involve metals at all.   They don't involve allomancers, they don't involve allomancers metal, they don't involve any metal.   They involve people and very specifically people, whether it be the allomancer themselves or others who may not be allomancers.   That is why I say metal vs people.

Ah, but does it affect the metals, that is the question, it is equally logical that it is affecting the person.  Because remember it is the person who is actually burning the metals in the first place, so then what Duralumin does can just as easily said to be increasing the bodies ability to burn metal at an exponential rate, and that Aluminum allows the body to instantly purge the metals.  Whose to say that Iron and Steel do not in fact give the body the ability to manipulate the metals.  It is my personal theory that the metals when burned do nothing but affect the burners body, so that he has access to small shards of the power of Adonalsium.  And I can be completely wrong here, as either explanation seems completely reasonable to me.

Shadowkiller

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #416 on: November 04, 2008, 10:43:21 PM »
Ah, but does it affect the metals, that is the question, it is equally logical that it is affecting the person.  Because remember it is the person who is actually burning the metals in the first place, so then what Duralumin does can just as easily said to be increasing the bodies ability to burn metal at an exponential rate, and that Aluminum allows the body to instantly purge the metals.  Whose to say that Iron and Steel do not in fact give the body the ability to manipulate the metals.  It is my personal theory that the metals when burned do nothing but affect the burners body, so that he has access to small shards of the power of Adonalsium.  And I can be completely wrong here, as either explanation seems completely reasonable to me.

What I'm really trying to say is not that it effects metals directly but rather that the effects involve metals.   Without metals, there is no effect.   Without metal, Iron and Steel are useless.   Without an another allomancer burning metal, Bronze and Copper are useless.   Without the allomancer having injested metal, Duralumin and Aluminum are useless.   They are all useless without metal outside of the metal being burned.   There is nothing in there saying how they effect or change the allomancer burning them, just that their effects involve metals whereas the others do not.

Arionhawk

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #417 on: November 04, 2008, 10:58:13 PM »
What I'm really trying to say is not that it effects metals directly but rather that the effects involve metals.   Without metals, there is no effect.   Without metal, Iron and Steel are useless.   Without an another allomancer burning metal, Bronze and Copper are useless.   Without the allomancer having injested metal, Duralumin and Aluminum are useless.   They are all useless without metal outside of the metal being burned.   There is nothing in there saying how they effect or change the allomancer burning them, just that their effects involve metals whereas the others do not.

Ah, I see what your getting at now.

Czanos

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #418 on: November 04, 2008, 11:18:11 PM »
Ah, but does it affect the metals, that is the question, it is equally logical that it is affecting the person.  Because remember it is the person who is actually burning the metals in the first place, so then what Duralumin does can just as easily said to be increasing the bodies ability to burn metal at an exponential rate, and that Aluminum allows the body to instantly purge the metals.  Whose to say that Iron and Steel do not in fact give the body the ability to manipulate the metals.  It is my personal theory that the metals when burned do nothing but affect the burners body, so that he has access to small shards of the power of Adonalsium.  And I can be completely wrong here, as either explanation seems completely reasonable to me.

What I'm really trying to say is not that it effects metals directly but rather that the effects involve metals.   Without metals, there is no effect.   Without metal, Iron and Steel are useless.   Without an another allomancer burning metal, Bronze and Copper are useless.   Without the allomancer having injested metal, Duralumin and Aluminum are useless.   They are all useless without metal outside of the metal being burned.   There is nothing in there saying how they effect or change the allomancer burning them, just that their effects involve metals whereas the others do not.

But copper and bronze don't have anything to do with metals. They deal with ripples in the fabric of creation, which are caused when someone taps into the powers of a Shard. This is shown because the mist spirit, who didn't have any metals, gave off a distinct "Allomantic" pulse. 
I came because I heard stories, tales of a lengendary man.
A man who was known as the Lord of the Mists, a man they named Survivor.
A man called Hope.

Shadowkiller

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Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon****
« Reply #419 on: November 04, 2008, 11:31:20 PM »
But copper and bronze don't have anything to do with metals. They deal with ripples in the fabric of creation, which are caused when someone taps into the powers of a Shard. This is shown because the mist spirit, who didn't have any metals, gave off a distinct "Allomantic" pulse. 
It sounds like you're trying to say that just because Ice is completely unlike Steam means it isn't made of the same stuff.   Metal is made of the power of the Shard, so is the Mist Spirit.   Just cause they look, feel and seem different doesn't mean they aren't made of the same stuff in the end.
Its pretty much stated that all metals are made of power.   This is expressed by the fact that none of the so called gods can read anything on any metal because it shines with power and by the fact that the mist spirit gave off the Allomantic pulse as you state.   My point is that without metal outside of itself, copper and bronze do nothing.   My argument has nothing to do with the ripples, nor does it preclude the ripples, just the fact that there is metal involved in the process at some point that doesn't include the copper or bronze being burned is all I'm referencing.