Right and Wrong Subjective?

[darxbane]

I'm not sure which comment to respond to first; there are many good points. 
Ookla; that is what I am saying, for the most part, and even if someone is completely incapable of believing in a Higher Power, it can't be denied that history has shown the consequences of selfishness, greed, envy, and pride mastering people.  That knowledge obviously still doesn't stop people from being that way, but to discard good knowledge because you don't like the source is foolish.

The reason I want to stay away from faith-based answers is because faith, by nature, is unexplainable.  That's the point, in fact.  However, I believe that it is possible to show why all forms of worship revolve around similar basic principals (even if they do get perverted by their followers at times) without including talk of a Creator.  That is a separate discussion.  I will break it down again; If you believe it is OK for you to do something to someone else, but it is not OK for the same thing to be done to you, then you are wrong.  If you do not at least consider the potential impacts you will cause, but only what you gain, you are wrong.
 
 The moral compass debate is interesting, especially since the Bible itself reminds us that children need structure and discipline in order to become good adults.  If we are truly born with this knowledge, why must we still learn it?  It is not completely innate, that's for sure. 

[Patriotic Kaz]

Bravo, bravo i have always wondered on how we came to the conclusion of right and wrong because it is a learned behavior...but i guess that is a different discussion.

[Renoard]

Knowledge of good and evil are innate, but children are mildly sociopathic.  Infants care only for their own welfare.  Maturing as a human leads to an awakening of moral agency.  But without guidance children make errors and cross lines that you can't uncross.  The need for good guidance as a child is to protect he child from psychic trauma, because of that child's own actions, which can lead to habitual crime and violence.  Biblically this is reference to as depravity or a seared conscience.

[Patriotic Kaz]

Can you prove that?

[Renoard]

I could but it would take a lot more than a few forum posts.  A couple of sections of upper division sociology would likely prove it to you.

[Patriotic Kaz]

Pah i doubt i have the background to understand it anyways...

[Comfortable Madness]

Everyone IS born with the knowledge of right/good. Children need structure and discipline to help understand that, while they will have a predisposition to do wrong, they should try their best to do what is right/good.

[Patriotic Kaz]

I sincerely doubt that if we knew it from birth then the mistakes wouldn't occur so frequently unless your quoting religous beliefs that have no backing and faith is NOT a backing...someone could put the definition up if they want to agrue it does but faith is the belief that defies logic the belief of the i dont know and have nothing to lose...



notice i did not advertise this post as fact...

[Reaves]

Kaz:

I just want to make sure I know what you are saying because your post was a bit garbled. You are saying that you doubt we know the difference of right and wrong from birth, because people so often choose the wrong thing?

[Patriotic Kaz]

YES!!!! I think the concept of right and wrong are learned not instinctual.

[Reaves]

Ok. I agree with part of what you are saying: people are capable of terrible things. Everyone is guilty of committing "wrong things" (not sure what word to use without sounding religious to you, tbh) However, I disagree with your conclusion, that people are incapable of discerning between right from wrong without being taught.
So far, we've only been looking at part of the issue: whether there is a universal right and wrong that is the same for everyone, and if it is possible to know this universal truth instinctively. However, that is not the end of the story. As humans there is something very wrong with us. I call it sin; you might call it something different. However, no one is unaffected by it. You might look at a small child biting his sister and say that he has not been taught that it is wrong. I would say that he already knows it is wrong, but has chosen to do it anyway.

[The Jade Knight]

I would agree with Reaves, and the work done by both philosophers (Locke and the ilk) as well as Psychologists (Erikson, anyone?) also seems to support this, though clearly the relationship is somewhat more complicated.

If you believe it is OK for you to do something to someone else, but it is not OK for the same thing to be done to you, then you are wrong.  If you do not at least consider the potential impacts you will cause, but only what you gain, you are wrong.

This is an oversimplification.  A doctor should believe that it is okay for him to give a child a shot, but not okay for the child to give him a shot.  Someone with a sunburn should be able to believe that it's okay for them to give someone a massage when it's not okay for other people to give them a massage.

And my fiancée believes it's okay to step on my feet, but not okay for me to step on hers.  She's right, too—it doesn't hurt me in the slightest when she steps on my feet (it's kind of fun, we dance that way), but it hurts her when I step on her feet.

It's clear that there are a wealth of examples to your rule.  However, I do agree with you that we, morally, should strive to be more aware of the consequences of our actions.  Too few people think enough for that, I'm afraid.

[Comfortable Madness]

I sincerely doubt that if we knew it from birth then the mistakes wouldn't occur so frequently unless your quoting religous beliefs that have no backing and faith is NOT a backing...someone could put the definition up if they want to agrue it does but faith is the belief that defies logic the belief of the i dont know and have nothing to lose...



notice i did not advertise this post as fact...

You say that since I draw my conclusions from faith that there is no backing and thus irrelevant. Yet you seem to draw your conclusions from nowhere. You state: "then the mistakes wouldn't occur so frequently" but where do you get that from??? What path of logic do you have to follow to get to that point??? What authority, on this matter, says as such? It appears that you are also  basing everything you say on faith as well. Faith in what though???

[darxbane]

And that is the point I am trying to make, Knight.  I may not have stated it as well as I should have, but I was trying to convey selflessness vs selfishness.  People look for reasons to justify their actions rather than question whether the potential consequences of their actions will impact others, or even themselves, negatively.  
Sin is just a fancy word for mistake (it literally means "missing the mark").  Since we are imperfect, it is easy to make mistakes.  To be honest, I think it is absolutely necessary to make mistakes in order to  grow spiritually and emotionally.  

I haven't read too many studies on child psychology (although I don't doubt I could find studies and essays that reach the opposite conclusions of those Knight mentioned), I only know from my own experiences, and when my 18 month old smacks my 30 month old because he took her bath toy, she does not know it is wrong.  All she understands is that he did something she didn't like, and reacted instinctively.  He does the same to her.  If they really understood what was right or wrong my wife and I wouldn't need to say "NO" 8 thousand times a day.  They are learning what they should and shouldn't do, but it is definitely a process.  Also, why is negative consequence required in order to support this teaching?  The Bible says "spare the rod and spoil the child".  Why is that?  Only pain and/or humiliation truly drives home the point?  The fear of experiencing that pain again the only true deterrent?  If the understanding of right and wrong is innate, it seems to lie dormant for most of our childhood.

[Patriotic Kaz]

It's not faith its logic the belief that we are inherently evil is something that exist so strongly SOLEY because people are taught so from birth and while there is to a degree somethings that we find unacceptable with out being taught i say we learn them because we notice society shuns it, a kid is far from stupid merely ignorant. This thought process or belief call it whatever you like are conclusions that do not pop out of the air but are observations i have seen in my environment with growing up with two extremely different parents with morals that did not co-inside and i still learned what society found acceptable from its reactions, i made the mistakes though. And faith is a fire people warm their hands by yet walk away from when it goes against what the want to do, there isn't much difference between me and a religious person the difference is i no longer try to justify my actions i understand why they are condemned and accept, grudgingly it may be, the consequences.

my rant is over