Author Topic: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar  (Read 2872 times)

RavenstarRHJF

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3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« on: March 23, 2009, 03:45:03 PM »
Please keep in mind that it's only half a chapter, and some things will be explained in the latter half of it.  Also, I was reading through it, getting it ready to send, and I noticed there was a lot of exposition.  Is it too much?  Not enough?  Do I need to break it up more or have the characters explain things themselves?  Looking forward to critiques!

EDIT:  at least one person has asked me to send the second half of the chapter.  Let me know if anyone else wants the second half as well; I checked, and it's about 2000 more words, so keep that in mind.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 12:07:10 AM by RavenstarRHJF »
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Necroben

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 12:26:29 AM »
…He said now.
Who said?  I figured it out after re-reading it, but it might help to go ahead and identify who’s saying what when you have more than two people.

… he looked more than usually distracted this morning…
This phrasing doesn’t really work for me.

Each T’Awn had…
Alright, so now I know what they are, a little.  Why are the wearing clothes?  Are they lizards or reptilian or something totally different?

A couple of years ago that would have been an unthinkable arrangement, but then, a couple years ago…
Here you kinda say the same thing twice and it might not be necessary.  You may want to thing about breaking up this sentence as well; it just seems too long.

… and yet they were deafened.
You might want to be careful of passive sentences.

Over all I liked it, but it did have a rather slow pace.  It felt like there was a little too much separation between the reader and conflict.  Things were happening but I wasn’t invested enough to care just yet.  It seems you’ve put a lot of effort into your world building, and as a reader I’m interested, but it is starting to get confusing.  Levels and the machinations in school and the purpose of the school, it’s just a little too much this early I think.  But, you have a great start here and I’m really interested in seeing were it goes.  Good job!

And you can send me the other half if you want. ;)
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 02:51:55 AM »
The good:

So far, I'm digging your world. The magic system looks interesting, and the fact that none of the characters are human could turn out to be a great strength - or it could blow up in your face. Little details here and there, like the scent of blossoms drifting down, give color to your writing and hint at a well-developed universe.

I like Meles as a character. We haven't seen much of him, but I feel like a know him. The twins are somewhat more forgettable, despite the fact that one of them has a viewpoint in this chapter.

The very bad:

The italicized intro didn't work for me. If I had picked up your book in a store and that were the first thing I'd read, I would have set the book back down, for several reasons (in order of importance):
  • It actively spoils the ending of the opening scene, dampening its impact.
  • It doesn't really tell us anything important (doesn't pull its weight)
  • Many of the things it does tell us are confusing and unnecessary (for example, the bit about treaties and alliances - with who? Or, the bit about the boundaries reciprocating in kind - reciprocating what? Reciprocating how? It's not clear from the text.
  • It's the weakest bit of writing in the piece - far below the relatively high standard you set in the rest.
The thing is, I don't think you need it; the rest of the chapter works better without it. It could conceivably be cleaned up, expanded, and placed in its own prologue, but if it were me I'd just cut it (sprinkling a bit more inline exposition on the rest, of course).

The "not as bad as the very bad, but still reasonably bad" bad:

The paragraph starting:
Quote
Each T’Awn had a particular and unique way of accessing what they called ‘the hidden power,’ ...

Practically jumped up and down, waving its arms and shouting, "Hey, look at me, I'm exposition!" I'm exaggerating, of course, but I think it could use a good smoothing.

The ending to the first section felt rushed to me. Once Meles calls on his power, I wanted to see what was going on, but it was over practically before it started. I felt you could have slowed down a bit - just a bit - and injected more detail about what each character was doing and what happened when they were "lost".

You pointed out that the twins didn't really know what was going on. How did they know what their part was in the working? How did their not knowing what to do contribute to their demise?

The mildly bad

Watch out for the passive voice; it's an evil impact-killing monster.

I personally am not a fan of giving unusual names to ordinary things. There's a tendency to do that in speculative fiction, but I don't think it works. For example,

Quote
Taq was usually attentive to the various announcements and other trivia that took place at the morning gather;

Is there something unusual about this "gather" that sets it apart from, say, a gathering, or an assembly? If not, then why not just call it an assembly?

I like to think of it in translator's terms. Presumably, the English language does not exist in your world; the story is therefore implicitly interpreted for our benefit. And translators do their best to render things in terms that are familiar to their audience, even at the expense of literal accuracy.

I guess what I'm saying is, let your culture shine through the things that are truly unusual, and let ordinary things stay ordinary and invisible.

Well, that's all I've got. I hope you're not put off by my forceful tone; the fact that I feel strongly enough to present my opinions forcefully says to me that I liked your story well enough to be passionate about it. I look forward to reading the rest.
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RavenstarRHJF

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 03:45:29 AM »
Thank you for reading!

…He said now.
Who said?  I figured it out after re-reading it, but it might help to go ahead and identify who’s saying what when you have more than two people.
Fixed.  ;)



Quote
Each T’Awn had…
Alright, so now I know what they are, a little.  Why are the wearing clothes?  Are they lizards or reptilian or something totally different?
Reptilian, yes.  Scaly, bipedal, with tails, and more talons than fingernails, though they try to keep them trimmed down.  As for the clothing, same reason we do: warmth and status.  They're not completely cold blooded, but they do get cold very, very quickly.

Quote
… he looked more than usually distracted this morning…
This phrasing doesn’t really work for me.
Quote
A couple of years ago that would have been an unthinkable arrangement, but then, a couple years ago…
Here you kinda say the same thing twice and it might not be necessary.  You may want to thing about breaking up this sentence as well; it just seems too long.
Let the rephrasing begin!

Quote
… and yet they were deafened.
You might want to be careful of passive sentences.
Sigh. I hear that all the time, but it still creeps in every now and then. :P

Quote
Over all I liked it, but it did have a rather slow pace.  It felt like there was a little too much separation between the reader and conflict.  Things were happening but I wasn’t invested enough to care just yet.  It seems you’ve put a lot of effort into your world building, and as a reader I’m interested, but it is starting to get confusing.  Levels and the machinations in school and the purpose of the school, it’s just a little too much this early I think.  But, you have a great start here and I’m really interested in seeing were it goes.  Good job!

And you can send me the other half if you want. ;)
Maybe the second half will help some of what you're talking about.  Let me know!


... none of the characters are human...
How do you know? ;)

Quote
I like Meles as a character. We haven't seen much of him, but I feel like a know him. The twins are somewhat more forgettable, despite the fact that one of them has a viewpoint in this chapter.
Yeah the twins are more foils for Meles than anything else.  They keep him real and relatable, instead of just the brainiac with all the answers.  I wanted to tell the beginning of this from their viewpoint, because they don't treat him as if he's special, and they don't think he will succeed.

Quote
The italicized intro didn't work for me... The thing is, I don't think you need it; the rest of the chapter works better without it. It could conceivably be cleaned up, expanded, and placed in its own prologue, but if it were me I'd just cut it (sprinkling a bit more inline exposition on the rest, of course).
I hadn't really thought about that.  This started out as a submission for a writing contest on another forum, but there I didn't start with Meles' story, so some explanation of what had happened was required to make that work.  I think you're probably right about this, and I'll end up tossing it.

Quote
The paragraph starting:
Quote
Each T’Awn had a particular and unique way of accessing what they called ‘the hidden power,’ ...

Practically jumped up and down, waving its arms and shouting, "Hey, look at me, I'm exposition!" I'm exaggerating, of course, but I think it could use a good smoothing.
Arg!  I thought I hid it better than that!

Quote
The ending to the first section felt rushed to me. Once Meles calls on his power, I wanted to see what was going on, but it was over practically before it started. I felt you could have slowed down a bit - just a bit - and injected more detail about what each character was doing and what happened when they were "lost".

You pointed out that the twins didn't really know what was going on. How did they know what their part was in the working? How did their not knowing what to do contribute to their demise?
I see your points.

Quote
I personally am not a fan of giving unusual names to ordinary things.
But that's part of the fun! :D ;) Yeah, I see what you mean.  You don't seem to have a problem with Lik and Qwerlik in place of teacher and Headmaster, though.  Or do you?

Thanks for all the great feedback!
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 04:09:31 AM »
Quote
You don't seem to have a problem with Lik and Qwerlik in place of teacher and Headmaster, though.  Or do you?

Nah, that's alright. It's a fine line to walk. To me, there is enough plausible uniqueness to the positions of Lik and Qwerlik to justify using an unusual name. "Teacher" doesn't convey all the same connotations as "Lik" seems to in your world, so the made-up word is effective. A "gather", on the other hand, looks like little more than a common assembly, and so the made-up word falls flat.
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 06:42:31 AM »
Hi Ravenstar,

I was one of the people who requested to read the entire chapter.  I'll divide my comments up into two sections.

Part A

Respectfully... the first paragraph wasn't very engaging for me, and I felt like I had to trudge through it. I probably would not have continued reading it if I had been in a bookstore.  The reason it didn't do much for me is that it felt like  a history lesson.  The second paragraph then gives away (??) the ending of the chapter.
 
I love that the first characters we meet are not human. I'm more interested now.  :)

Quote
Usually it was a battle royale to drag his twin away from his dreams.

This line feels a little a out of place because "battle royale" sounds too modern to me.  (Maybe I'm too nit-picky though?)

I'm having a hard time figuring out where the characters are.  Are they at their homes, or at school? The twins at least live with their parents, but they have easy access to school warding rooms.  Do they live in individual homes?   Consider establishing the setting a little more fully.  Also, if these are lizard-like people, I'd very much like to see the type of world or community they live in! :)

I was confused by the magic system. I know its early in the story, but everything we know about it has been told to us, and not shown. So when Meles runs his test with all the diagrams and chalk lines with the twins, I had a hard time understanding what was going on.  Maybe that was your intent. But just be aware that it frustrated me as a reader because I kept wondering if I had missed something, or if I simply hadn't properly understood your previous explanation of the hidden powers.

Quote
Taq was annoyed...

My main feedback for your work is that it contains a lot of telling rather than showing. The above sentence is a good example of this on a smaller scale.  More generally, there are some larger info dumps that flat out explain the world, or the magic system, or the way the faculty relate to the students.

A good example of this info dump would be the first paragraph of Part B. (Which leads me to .... )

Part B

Quote
The three were sprawled on the floor, unconscious and unresponsive. 

This was the first place in the chapter (parts A or B), where I was really pulled in and engaged. 

Quote
Even in his anxiety for his special student...

"Special student"?  Hadn't Taq just spent the last few pages lamenting about what a pain in the butt Meles was? Or does the master have a deeper affection for his student than he generally admits?

Quote
And then there would still be the burial fee. 

LOL! Clever.  I like how Taq is emotionally caught up in this...  It reminds me of an irrational parent thinking their kid will be a failure because they got a "D" on their 4th grade spelling test.   I know Meles' situation is more severe and real, but still... it has that feel to it.

 Overall:  This is an interesting and unique setup. The lizard-men race is neat, although I wish there was more detail on their looks, their environment, culture, etc.  I'm not quite certain yet who the main protagonist is, but that's okay.  I hope to learn soon enough!  :)   

See my note above about the show vs. tell.  That's the area I would suggest you concentrate most of your revision efforts on to really take this chapter to the next level.

Good work. I'm looking forward to the next chapter!

J
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RavenstarRHJF

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 03:01:39 AM »
Thank you jwdenzel! Can I call you J? ;D

I'm going to toss that introductory section at the beginning.  I put it in originally because I was starting the story in a different place, and some explanation was required.  Since I'm not doing that anymore, away it goes.

I'm in the process of revising all of my expository sections.  I'm going to try and combine setting/character descriptions with the exposition so that it both flows better and is more interesting than a plain info dump.  We'll see how successful I am next time I submit! ;)

About Taq- I was trying to go for frazzled, yet proud (of Meles), but apparently I was too vague.  I'll work on that.
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 07:59:05 PM »
Thank you jwdenzel! Can I call you J? ;D

Totally. :)
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Reaves

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 12:30:09 AM »
Alright, your first submission! Thanks for sharing, and if no one has done so yet I formally welcome you to RE!


It seems like there is a lot of exposition in the first few pages. I'm not even necessarily talking about the intro. There is a huge paragraph where it almost seems like you go off on a tangent, explaining things that aren't directly pertinent to the subject at hand. I'm not going to quote the entire paragraph, I'll just tell you it was the one that began with: "Meles had been working...." and ended with: "their help with something."

It seems a bit like you started writing and then realized you needed to give this guy some background and just started putting it in. I'm not sure if that's what you did, but that was my first impression.
Here is something that helps me: I just have another document open titled "Worldbuilding" where I throw all that stuff, whether its character description or a snatch of dialogue I want to put in somewhere or actual worldbuilding.


Quote
...Meles had not yet been in the advanced levels, and by now the twins were approaching the legal age of adult-hood. 
I hadn't thought of it before now, but this sentence made me wonder. What is the lifespan of this lizard society like? I get that these three are analogous to human teenagers, but how many actual years have they lived?

Quote
But today he found himself daydreaming about a new and improved Meles.  One who was only too willing to be led by his much more experienced master. 
GREAT characterization! and kinda funny too...

About halfway through, you really grabbed my interest. This chapter felt waay too short for my tastes, LOL!

I will say this. I liked reading about Taq more than your other three characters. I just really loved his internal thoughts and emotions. He seemed like a fully fledged character. Who knows, I haven't had much time with your other three, so maybe they will grow on me.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, I've been saying "your other three" a lot. That's because I don't know their lizard names :(  I know, it would seem like Meles and Kreel and that other one would be easy enough to remember, but I can't :(  They are lizards, and so their names should sound like something a lizard would have, but remember, you are writing for a HUMAN audience. Sometimes it can get pretty ridiculous with names and titles and whatnot. It hasn't gotten anywhere near that point in your manuscript yet, but I just thought I would say something now.

Anyway, I really liked what you have here and I think it has a lot of potential. It feels like you are writing for a younger (read middle school or lower) audience, but I am still enjoying it. I'm looking forward to seeing some great stuff from you!

EDIT: Oh yeah. I meant to mention this before, but got sidetracked. When you start a new paragraph, generally you want to indent it with the tab button. I don't know if I am just so used to seeing it when I read, but when I was reading your submission I realized what a difference it was and it bothered me a bit.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 12:53:17 AM by Reaves »
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 12:55:55 AM »
Thanks, Reaves, I'm glad you like it so far!

Yes, there is a bunch of exposition in the first chapter, which I'm revising as we speak. ;)  That's a great suggestion about the secondary "worldbuilding" document you've got there! 

It seems a bit like you started writing and then realized you needed to give this guy some background and just started putting it in. I'm not sure if that's what you did, but that was my first impression.
As a matter of fact, that's just about EXACTLY what I did.  Y'all are getting the very first draft of this story- although in subsequent chapters, it'll probably be the second or third revisions based on what you guys say to me in the mean time!

Quote
What is the lifespan of this lizard society like? I get that these three are analogous to human teenagers, but how many actual years have they lived?
You shall find out.  Probably in my next submission. :)

Quote
Quote
But today he found himself daydreaming about a new and improved Meles.  One who was only too willing to be led by his much more experienced master. 
GREAT characterization! and kinda funny too...
Thank you!

Quote
About halfway through, you really grabbed my interest. This chapter felt waay too short for my tastes, LOL!

I will say this. I liked reading about Taq more than your other three characters. I just really loved his internal thoughts and emotions. He seemed like a fully fledged character. Who knows, I haven't had much time with your other three, so maybe they will grow on me.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, I've been saying "your other three" a lot. That's because I don't know their lizard names :(  I know, it would seem like Meles and Kreel and that other one would be easy enough to remember, but I can't :(  They are lizards, and so their names should sound like something a lizard would have, but remember, you are writing for a HUMAN audience. Sometimes it can get pretty ridiculous with names and titles and whatnot. It hasn't gotten anywhere near that point in your manuscript yet, but I just thought I would say something now.
I think my current revision will help with that, since I'm taking more time to actually introduce them to the reader, instead of just throwing you guys into the action right off the bat.

Quote
Anyway, I really liked what you have here and I think it has a lot of potential. It feels like you are writing for a younger (read middle school or lower) audience, but I am still enjoying it. I'm looking forward to seeing some great stuff from you!
Could you elaborate on that?  My story is not "epic" by any means, and is not intended to be- but is rather supposed to be an enjoyable read for someone who just wants to relax for a bit.  Is that what you mean?  Or is it something else about my style that makes it feel "young?"
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Reaves

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 01:19:41 AM »
Quote
Anyway, I really liked what you have here and I think it has a lot of potential. It feels like you are writing for a younger (read middle school or lower) audience, but I am still enjoying it. I'm looking forward to seeing some great stuff from you!
Could you elaborate on that?  My story is not "epic" by any means, and is not intended to be- but is rather supposed to be an enjoyable read for someone who just wants to relax for a bit.  Is that what you mean?  Or is it something else about my style that makes it feel "young?"

I suppose it might be a bit too early to tell. It just has that feel. Some of the jokes, the interaction between the characters, the fact that they are lizards, etc felt geared toward a "younger" audience. I didn't mean it wasn't epic fantasy -- way too early for me to decide that -- but it is clearly not dark fantasy and that was just the first impression I got from it.
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 01:26:19 AM »
Ah.  Ok!
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2009, 05:02:55 PM »
Yes, I know, I am jumping around like a crazy person, but it is finally your turn! (no groaning please ;))

Thoughts While Reading:
I do like some of the things the italz hint at, but I'd rather you just get to the story at hand.

As far as relationship matters/personality types go, you tell us a lot up front, but I would rather you leave it off and show us by the way the lizard boys interact.Having the MC being woken up is a very common way to begin a story and I don't see it adding much for you right now. Maybe you could start in the room with Meles setting up the spell and the other two yawning? That's when I really started to get interested and it would be a good way to show your characters/world/magic all at once.

I like most of your 'world building words' but I think you may be teetering on overuse.And I would condense a lot of the internal thought, just to keep the story moving

Overall impression:
It fells overly telly right now, but I can see that you are doing some good world building and I am interested in your lizards and your world (looks like a lot of fun!). It may be just where you stopped it, but I would like to see Taq have a few more 'out of the ordinary' things to do to justify using his view point. Some of the dialogue seems a bit unnatural as you seem to be using it solely for exposition at this point, but I would definitely want to read more and find out what happened to the trio at the beginning. Great start! :)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 04:25:42 PM by Frog »
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 03:49:27 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, Frog!  Lots of good stuff here I can check against my current revision. :)
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Re: 3-23-09 The Junction, Ch. 1-a by Ravenstar
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 08:39:19 PM »
My first comment is that I'm not immediately sure who's point of view we're in. The first paragraph seems to indicate that we're in Meles's head, while the second says that we're in Kodak's head.

In fact, the POV problem extends beyond the first couple of paragraphs. By the third paragraph I've decided it's Kodak who's the POV, and the moment I read on I think it's Meles. I don't know for sure until I hit about page three whose head we're actually in.

You mention that if the twins and Meres get caught, they'll be expelled. I'd like to kno why the twins are so willing to risk being expelled for Meres's sake, even beyond the fact that they're supposed to keep him out of trouble or whatever. Does expulsion actually mean anything to them?  If so, why aren't they more uncomfortable with this? Have they done this sort of thing without supervision before?

The transition to the following scene reads "the next morning dawned sunny and beautiful". You might want to say only "the morning dawned..." because otherwise it implies that we'll be in the same point of view as before when we're not, and it's a teensy bit jarring.

Maybe it's just me, but I think there's something about mentioning numbers--you talk of tenth-level students here--that sounds kind of video gameish.

The story seems just begun to me, so I don't have a great deal to add. Going through others' comments, I think Ryos made some good points; the prologue didn't work for me either. I don't know if I would have set it down on that basis, but I certainly would have skipped it, and maybe been less inclined to look at the rest of your work favourably. And he made good points about the end of Kodak's point of view scene: I wanted to see more of what was happening, but I blinked and missed it. :P

The term "battle royale" stuck out for me too, and I noticed the same paragraph Reaves did in terms of there being a lot of exposition.

I also enjoyed Taq's viewpoint the most, and I don't have a problem with your names so far. In fact, I like them. They seem... lizardy. XP

Edit: I guess I should have looked at your emails before sending this, because I didn't realize you'd submitted a revised version of chapter one. Oh well. ::)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 08:40:59 PM by Silk »