Writing Groups: An Essay by Dan Wells

[Reaves]

Here is an essay I stumbled across on fearfulsymmetry.net, Dan Wells' aka Fellfrosch's blog. Its quite interesting and since we are in a writing group I figured it would be applicable


http://www.fearfulsymmetry.net/?page_id=84

[Necroben]

Thanks for sharing Reaves.   I really like the way they use levels in their critiques.  I've noticed the way we have evolved our own style is kinda similar.  Still, it's something to think about.

[Frog]

That's a good essay. I liked the levels too. Some of the other things may be harder to use here because of the online format, but it's all good.

[Silk]

It's funny, the crit groups I've been in (namely my creative writing classes) have never really done anything as "organized" as levels. We talk about the good and the bad in no particular order and just kind of go all over the place. But whatever works...

[jwdenzel]

Great article.  Thanks, Reaves.  Most of the points made were discussed in the Writing Excuses episode where they talked about writing groups. It's good to have this as a reference point to come back to.

Ben (hey, when did you change your name to Gangreenben?) makes a good point about how our group has done a pretty good job of naturally using those "levels".  One of the things I love about this group is that the feedback given tends to include positive comments as well as different levels of constructive criticism.

If I could make one suggestion to our group as a whole (with absolutely nobody specific in mind), I think we could do better on the whole "Writers should listen and not defend their work."  What do you guys work?  Sometimes I see a lot of specific, line-by-line replies to every bit of feedback given.  Do you think that can be reined in a litte, or are we doing OK there?

J

[Necroben]

I just changed it for St. Patty's Day.  I'm just weird like that.  I personally don't have a problem with replies to feedback, so long as that's all it is.  Or a question on some points of interest.  On the other hand it can be a fine line to walk.  It all depends on how one interpets another's comments.  So I think were doing OK with it so far.

[Silk]

I have a slightly different opinion of line-by-line writing in writing workshops than most people seem to.

First off, I have to admit, that if I'm pressed for time, they're the first thing I will not look at when doing a critique for soeone else, and the last thing I will look at if I'm reading a critique someone else has done for me. That said...

I know that line-by-line changes in a first draft might end up being irrelevant, depending on how much rewriting the author does. And I know that there are bigger problems that usually be addressed. Even though, I think line-by-line changes are useful. Sure, maybe that piece of writing will get changed... But maybe it won't.  And if it doesn't, one more pair of eyes to catch that extra comma or a poorly worded sentence are a help. And Jim Bob Joe over there might catch something like that in my manuscript that I didn't, 'cuz you know, I wrote the thing, so I knew what it meant.

The other reason I actually like the line-by-line edits is because it actually does help me get a feel for what's working and what isn't working stylistically, and that's the sort of thing I can keep in the back of my mind even as I'm writing the next chapter.

And really, even though it does add up when you're talking novels, the line-by-line edits are easy fixes. In the grand scheme of things, they just don't take that long to do.

Because there's a time limit with face-to-face workshop scenarios, I usually don't mention the line level stuff in verbal critiques. I'll just hand the author a marked-up manuscript after the fact. I've been basically doing the same thing here on the forums, keeping my crits broad on the discussion threads and emailing people back their manuscripts.

So, uhh... I guess the short version of that is I don't really think giving people line-level critiques is at all problematic (at least as long as they're getting adequate critiques about the bigger picture). Sorry for ranting. I am supposed to be writing an essay right now. At least this means I'm in the right mindset.

[ryos]

Hey Silk - how do you go about marking up documents for people?

In my case it should be pretty easy, since I'm an incredibly huge nerd. I write in Markdown format using a plain text editor. When "marking up" my stuff, feel free to just make whatever changes you want, without care for marking what you changed. I can then diff your version against mine and see exactly what you changed very quickly.

However, I recognize that few people work the way I do. So, if I were to do a line edit on someone else's stuff, what's the best way to go about that?

[Frog]

We seem to be having two different discussions here, so I’ll go ahead and give my two cents on both counts (since I’m sure you all are just dying to hear it).

I think the reason that Dan listed the ‘writer’s shouldn’t talk’ rule was as a way to prevent fights and hard feelings in the group, but so far I haven’t seen any of our discussion leading to that kind of thing. While responding to level one stuff is probably a waste of time, I see no reason for the writers to feel like they can’t respond to the critiquers if they want to as long as everyone remains open minded and civil. I like to at least say thank you and have sometimes found that by discussing a few of these things it helps to narrow down what the problem is with the writing. It also leads to some fun conversations that help us all feel more comfortable with each other as a group. It may have been more of a problem in a face to face group, but for our online format, I think most everyone is doing well in that area.... Though I suppose there is always room for improvement... especially if your name happens to be Frog.

And as for making line by line edits, I am in favor of that too. Everyone seems to have different things they look at when they read/edit so it is helpful to see whatever they most notice, even if it can seem a little nitpicky. I am thrilled to get line by line edits, overall impressions or anything at all from people who read my stuff and try to give a mixture of both when I critique.

Oh, and Ryos (welcome to the group BTW), if you want to do line by line comments on people’s ms, there are commenting tools under the insert tab in most versions of word. It highlights small sections and opens up a text box where you can put your own comments. But most people in the group tend to copy and past the quotes to the thread post and do it line by line that way. Everyone has their own way of commenting based on their time schedule and what jumps out at them while reading, so whatever you decide to do in the end should be fine. 

[jwdenzel]

Sorry I wasn't clear.  When I said "line-by-line" responses, I was referring to when the authors tries to explain or justify themselves in their responses to the feedback they've received.  I am not referring to reviewers who choose to quote or comment on lots of specific lines.

My point is that I sometimes see authors in our group get defensive. It's only occasionally, and not all of the time. (By far we do this just fine, I think)   

Do you guys watch American Idol?  When the judges give their feedback, if the singer tries to respond or explain themselves, 99% of the time, they look like unprofessional.  Same applies here.  Dan's comments in the blog seem to basically be saying:  "Shut up, nod your head, say thank you, and then figure out later if you are going to take the advice or not."

Anyway, I don't want to drag this out cause it's not really an issue. I only brought it up in order to prevent the trend from growing to a point where its TOO big.

J

[Bookstore Guy]

Some other things to keep in mind as you do writing groups is that everyone is different. Some people may like the line-by-line commentary, but to others it may feel very nit-picky. In a format like the one you have going here, the line-by-line commentary may help in most cases, but you may want to ask if that is what they want, or if they are more focused on exclusively big-level items.

As for responding to comments, I recommend being very careful about that. There is nothing wrong with asking questions to further clarify the commentary that was made, but one thing I have noticed is that if you respond even with "Oh yeah I knew that was there and plan on fixing it" you may limit the valuable feedback you will be getting in future submissions. People will begin to think when reading your submission, "oh i wont bother mentioning that because he probably already plans on fixing it." I've seen it happen, and you can never assume people know what the problems are in their own material - that's kinda why they are having others read it. When Dan (or anyone) mentions the "keep silent" rule, it's not just due to the potential conflicts, it's due to unintentionally limiting the honest comments you get. I've browsed through a few of the threads here, and the responding to commentary seems heavy. Every time you explain something in your return commentary, you potentially hurt people's ability to give uncompromisable feedback. Rather than explain, perhaps ask a question - "You said it feels vague, but in what sense?"

Remember, you want people to be honest with what do and do not like about your story. Being completely honest (while being tactful) while commenting will help the writer as well as the commenter. There are exceptions to everything, but in general, be as honest as you can, and respond only with questions to clarify the comments - and of course be grateful that people are taking time away from their writing to help you the same way you are helping them.

Just my two cents.

[jwdenzel]

Well said, UtbaIBG      ("Oot-bye-bug")

[Bookstore Guy]

Soon I will just have a symbol for my name, and I will require people to call me by that name even though I say it's not pronounceable.

Anyways, I hope I helped to one degree or another. I have been in a few writing groups, most of which ended poorly due to the factors mentioned in my previous post.

[Silk]

Yeah, I think Bookstore Guy nailed it. That, and - though this may be less important in an online group, because time isn't as much an issue - but defending yourself does take up workshop time, and that's not really what a workshop's for.

Ryos: Yeah, I use the Word comments feature. I believe it works in Open Office as well (though I don't use Open Office, I'm pretty sure some of my classmates do, and I've only ever seen one person have a problem reading the comments). It's an extraordinarily handy feature; you can add coments in the margin, or just go in and change stuff, and it will mark your changes clearly so that you can easily compare it to the original line.

[Renoard]

Going back a bit, Ben, you mention the "style" of commenting that the group has evolved.  As I'm a new reader, is there anything like a concise guide to that style say half a dozen one liners to use as a guide when critiquing?