2 - 9 - 09 - jwdenzel - The Gates of Heaven: Ch. 2 - Ch. 3

[jwdenzel]

Thanks for reading!

I lovingly dedicate chapter 3 to Necroben who previously said:

Minor point:  Armor is not a good idea anywhere around deep water.

Indeed, Ben.  Indeed.

---- 
I have specific notes and questions, but I'll wait a bit before I bring them up.

[Necroben]

Haha! First post!

Thoughts while reading:

When you start saying, three days after and four days after, I start trying to add up all the days and it gets kinda confusing.

Beginning of page three:  teach, maybe you meant teeth?

I’ve noticed some weak words scattered about so far.  You might want to try and avoid the probably’s and supposed’s.  It kinda sounds wishy-washy.  Near is another one. 

While dolphins can be cool, they didn’t really do anything to move the story along.

When you describe about how the sleeping arrangements were moved around and then gave out names; I was like, who?  If they’re going to be important later on then you might want to fill them out a little more.  What’s their rank?  Hair color, something to make them stand out a little more.  Ok, after re-reading it makes more sense.  But is this scene necessary to the rest of the story?  I can’t speak for anyone else, but I kinda figure it would happen that way.

Page 7, top: intervals rather than internals maybe.  Sounds like he’s got intestines all over the place.

He rested the sword against the desk, balancing it carefully.  On a moving ship?  What about crests and swells, pitch and yaw?  With all that constant movement, he’d be better off just holding it.

The wine bottle is made of crystal, but the goblets are only glass?

“False gods that are not Him.”  If they’re not Him, wouldn’t they be False.  Or are there false gods that are Him.  Err… something like that.

The Seekers look-out post had managed to spot land…  The post saw land first?  Sorry, you could probably just say look-out.

A moment later their ship toppled completely over.  Capsized.

…Unlatch the leather cord swiftly.  Leather swells when soaked.

Also, if the weight of his armor had been pulling him down for about a minute, then he’d be pretty far down.  Coming up that quickly would result in the Bends.  Which, if I remember correctly, are nitrogen bubbles in the blood.  Without proper treatment he’ll die.

Wow, all in all I’m impressed.  You put Aric through the grinder there.  So far, this is a book that I wouldn’t be able to put down.  Lol, and that’s why wearing armor would be a bad idea aboard ship.  I really like the conflicts you were setting up, and I’m intrigued as to where you’ll go with them from here.  Great story, I look forward to your next submission.

[jwdenzel]

While dolphins can be cool, they didn’t really do anything to move the story along.

Looks like I have to dedicate chapter 6 to you as well.

[Necroben]

Boy, I sure know how to pick' em don't I?

[Revast]

OK, my humble thoughts below,

First, I'm not trying to be picky, and I don't know what draft this is, but there were far to many past tense "easy" verbs for me. To many uses of: was, were, had, etc... Often these words could be eliminated entirely and have no effect on the sentence or what it is trying to convey.

Aric felt a rising sensation as the ship was lifted high on a deep swell, and then suddenly dropped with a sickening decent.

Eliminate was from the sentence and it is less passive, more engaging.

More pressing, however, was the fact that his lungs were stilling burning.

Changed to: More pressing, however was the fact that his lungs still burned.

It still has a was in it, but eliminate a passive were that isn't needed.

Overall it just felt like a lot of the passive verbs could easy be turned to more engaging verbage with slight changes to the sentence structures. It makes the reader feel more like they are experiencing the story instead of being told the story.

Their shapes were somewhat diamond-like with the lowest point of each island coming to a point, like an inverted mountain.

The use of point twice in the sentence just seems odd, like saying the "lowest swell of the wave dipped in a dramatic swell." (bad example, hopefully gets the point across though.)

How did Pellis estimate that the island was 40,000 steps into the air. You say it like it is a good estimate and not just a guess. Do they have some way to come up with this number?

It will hardly be a success if we can't get to the cracked islands.

What does cracked mean? Maybe I'm just missing something. Are they broken? Are you saying they are the tops of mountains cracked off? Is cracked a swear word? Is Revast just stupid?

[insert comment about dolphins.... wait author says they are important later.... eliminate comment about dolphins]
Honestly though the whole paragraph about the dolphins and gazing about the ship in awe just seemed out of place considering he seemed entirely pissed off... not exactly the best mood for quiet reflection.

Chapter 3

the fog got to thick

later

Before them, on the burning edge of the horizon, the final sliver of sun...

Whaa? is it foggy or not? Apparently the lookouts can't see through the fog from the crows nest, but Aric can?

Also, you go into detail about the force of the wind, and flags whipping and snapping violently, but yet Aric and his companions just stand easily on the bow staring at the island. Perhaps they should be bracing themselves, or clutching at the rail, wind billowing in their faces?

A moment later their ship toppled completely over.

For such a catastrophic event a little more description would be nice. Aric's feelings as the ship slides out from under him, the sounds of a great warship capsizing, what was the crew saying. Just a thought.

For the latter, he deserved the former.

I loved that line, when combined with the sentence above it.


Summary: Good story, and man is a lot happening and yet I am still clueless (and curious) as to where this is taking me. A lot happening to Aric, his world being thrown into utter chaos, good stuff. The writing got really passive for a while, and was tough to swim through, but the action in chapter three made up for it. Can't wait to find out what happens next!

[jwdenzel]

Thanks guys for the feedback thus far.  I never would have picked up on the whole "passive verb" thing.  Now that I know about it though, I'll do my best to look for it.   You're right about what a difference it makes.

Chapter 2 has been a struggle for me to write.  It's heavy on exposition, but I had to get a lot of that out.   Did any of you feel that as though I was info-dumping too much?  Any thoughts on that?

How did Pellis estimate that the island was 40,000 steps into the air. You say it like it is a good estimate and not just a guess. Do they have some way to come up with this number?

Yes, actually.  My brother goes to the US Naval Academy.  I ran the scenario by him and he gave me an easy math formula  I could use to match distance, speed, and altitude.   (The US Navy has this stuff down cold.  I think my brother said he learned it in his Weapons class.  O_O)    Pellis is an educated man with an important role in a long sea voyage.  He probably eats calculations like this for breakfast.

Re: "Cracked"... my pathetic attempt at a curse word. This is my second submission in a row that I've failed to use good curse words.  I'll keep trying.

[Revast]

No, I like Cracked as a curse word. Maybe just introduce it better. Perhaps:

"It will hardly be a success if we can't get to the cracked islands," Aric finished with a curse.

Or something like that. I think I could easily believe cracked as a curse word if it was introduced as such.

[Hamster]

Hey, even though I missed chapter 1, this really caught my attention.  Sure, like Revast said, the prose does have a few passive verbs, but overall it was great. I love the storyline so far, seems original and complex. Personally, I found chapter two getting alittle long by the end, I enjoyed it, but found myself wondering when something was going to happen. I did like the conversation with the Admiral, but I think that Laudney might be a little more tactful about talking what could be considered heresy and treason when speaking with the King's Ambassador. It seemed like you were trying hard to get his points across to the reader, and instill a lot of doubt in the King's intentions. I would've preferred more subtle and foreshadowed stuff, and then we find out more later.

I don't have a lot to say about it that isn't already said, just a few points I feel need a little work.
How did Berart predict the weather if it wasn't natural? Doesn't really make sense to me..maybe I'm missing something here
actually, that's about it, all my other stuff was already said

Keep up the good work, I love it so far, really want to know what's happening, and am curious about everything going on! totally hooked, writing still needs some work, its good, but I feel like the plot so far is better than the writing.

(Loved the irony that the ship 'The Legendary Inferno' was struck by lightning, gotta love it!) Keep it up!

[jwdenzel]

Thanks, Hamster, for all your suggestions and feedback.  Drop me an email or PM if you're interested in reading the prologue and chapter 1.   I think the prose was stronger in those chapters than these newest ones.  I'll keep working at it!

BTW, Re: Berart predicting the storm... hmmm. I hadn't picked up on that. I was just trying to foreshadow, and not necessarily imply that he has special powers or anything.  But now that you mention it, maybe I can play around with the idea... hmmmm

[Frog]

Let the War of Mean Comments continue!

Thoughts While Reading:
You can tell me what Aric is thinking, but if you’re talking about the crew in general I would prefer you show me their excitement.

Seems a bit like a travel log here... not very engaging.

"Aric gritted his teach unconsciously." Umm...?

Again, if these men's relationship is important, show it to me rather then just telling it to me all at once. Sentences like this one, "Knowing them as he did now after these long months, Aric knew that the sage was probably wise to keep his comment to himself,"  just seem a little over the top.

"So here they were, ahead of the comet, within sight of the Islands, but without an obvious way of getting to them."
You just told us/showed us this. Avoid the sum up.

As much as I like dolphins, and random sleeping arrangements this doesn't look like the most opportune time for a scenery shot to me... and I feel like your dropping a few too many names personally, especially if you are expecting me to remember them all (I'm notorious for forgetting names after all...)

"Laudney noticed his careful attention." the fact that he comments on it shows us that he noticed it, so you can delete this sentence.

"He had been one of the men to campaign for the Ambassador role, of course. Nearly every noble in the kingdom, every military commander and aristocrat campaigned in some fashion to be considered. Laudney had not made a great effort to win the honor, but it would have been political suicide to not even attempt."
Is this really important to the story at hand?

"It will speak for itself." That's one spiffy sword.

"They had found land -- real, seemingly non-magical, level with-the sea, dry land -- at last. At least, that's what Aric was hoping it would turn out to be."
I'm confused. Did they or didn't they find land?

"It didn't seem natural to him. Everything had been fine, and then the strange light had turned red. He remembered the sensation of feeling as though he was passing through, or entering into ...something."
Already got that thanks.

It may just be the way the scene is extended, but it seemed to me that he was underwater too long for it to be believable.

Overall impression:
Well, there was plenty of conflict in these chapters, but I am afraid I am going to have to risk sounding like a broken record and tell you that there is just too much fluff. You are a very talented writer, but at the same time I feel like I am back reading text books or running a marathon trying to get through all of it (I have to admit that I took a few breaks, especially in the 2nd chp, but that could just be my short attention span kicking in). I tried to show you some specific examples of things that could easily be deleted, but mostly you just need to avoid repeating yourself in the same section (I can usually get it the first time) and tighten up a few of the sentences by deleting things like was, had, probably, seemed to... yeah, all those passive words others have mentioned.
Okay, enough mean comments. You have a great character and a good set up for conflict so I am very interested in what is going to happen next and seeing more of your world, so keep it coming.

[jwdenzel]

Let the War of Mean Comments continue!

*shakes fist*  I'll get my revenge!

In all seriousness though, you're not being mean, and I see no reason for you to apologize. Constructive criticism is a good thing, and I appreciate your hoensty.  Plus, it's not nearly as brutal as you think it is. (Come on, hit me harder!)  lol

Well, there was plenty of conflict in these chapters, but I am afraid I am going to have to risk sounding like a broken record and tell you that there is just too much fluff.

Again, I appreciate your honesty.  Could you clarify something for me though? Was it the "passive" writing style that made this submission feel slow to you, or was it the actual events in the story?  As I said above, chapter 2 was a challenge for me to write, as I definitely don't want to bore the reader. 

Thanks again!

[maxonennis]

The entire first page is reflective and a whole lot of “showing” and not much telling. It didn’t bother me, but it’s not “literarily sound”. It happens again when the he is thinking about the bard.

I keep wondering if, with all the references to meditation, if this is supposed to be an eastern influenced world building. That’s exciting to me, considering the number of medieval Europe style fantasy novels. (I like ideas that at least feel original.)

After their little talk about the comet, it wasn’t necessary to give the paragraph of detail afterwards. You could’ve let the dialog stand on it’s own to poke readers interest (I wanted to skip over the following explanatory paragraph.)

All the around walking on the ship makes me seasick…

The Admiral's cabin was a marvel to behold. It was actually the second largest on the ship, just slightly smaller than Aric's. Normally somebody such as the Admiral would receive the largest, finest quarters, but Laudney took the second cabin gracefully enough when he learned that the King's personal Ambassador would be on his ship. This shift had pushed Derrick down a set of quarters, which meant that in turn, Aric suspected, things trickled their way down so that someone, somewhere, was jammed into an uncomfortable corner where normally nobody would sleep. Such was the way of the world.

The last sentence was unnecessary to convey the point.

I don’t know if the “we are coming in war” reveal was supposed to be a surprise, but I saw it coming in the first chapter.

Laudney's words may border on heresy, if not treason.

Wouldn’t heresy and treason be the same thing in their society?

Spoiler warning! My theory is that the King/God is from the seven islands and there are “celestial” beings that live there, and he’s one of them. He’s sending them to reclaim is homelands, which he was probably thrown out of.

[jwdenzel]

Spoiler warning! My theory is that the King/God is from the seven islands and there are “celestial” beings that live there, and he’s one of them. He’s sending them to reclaim is homelands, which he was probably thrown out of.

I cannot begin to tell you how happy this comment, along with the one about the Eastern influences, made me!!  I've never had somebody theorize about one of my stories.   I hope what's in store ends up being surprising and exciting for you guys.   As for your theory itself... it's good, but you'll have to RAFO! ;-)

Thanks for the other feedback, maxonennis .

[Frog]

*shakes fist*  I'll get my revenge!

In all seriousness though, you're not being mean, and I see no reason for you to apologize. Constructive criticism is a good thing, and I appreciate your hoensty.  Plus, it's not nearly as brutal as you think it is. (Come on, hit me harder!)  lol

Well, in that case.... hmm... can't think of anything mean to say. That's unfortunate. Later though. .

Again, I appreciate your honesty.  Could you clarify something for me though? Was it the "passive" writing style that made this submission feel slow to you, or was it the actual events in the story?  As I said above, chapter 2 was a challenge for me to write, as I definitely don't want to bore the reader. 

I can honestly say that it wasn't the content. Not every scene has to thrill me, in fact, I kinda prefer it if they don't because I love characters and world building and it makes the major action/drama that much sweeter when it comes. I just have to feel like I'm moving and it seemed to me that your scenes were overly long, even the 'exciting' ones. Some of that I think could easily be taken care of by being less passive and avoiding the sum up/repeating trap, but some of it will have to be you figuring out what details are important for later, bringing those out, and deleting some of the excess, which I am sure will be easier once you have more of your story written out.
Does that make sense?

[jwdenzel]

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

Thank you.