Poll

Which team would win in a fight?

Elantrian/Dakhor
Mistborn/Feruchemist

Author Topic: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*  (Read 17681 times)

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2009, 05:01:03 AM »
Raoden actually draws to power aeons at once at the end to blast two different monks...and Elantrians are faster stronger more agile and better coordinated than average humans
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little wilson

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2009, 05:07:00 AM »
Does he? I don't remember that?...And yet, I'm not surprised. Well. I guess I kind of am....I mean, if he does, why are there so many people who are so certain that the Elantrians/monks would lose?

(I understand thinking it out and coming to the conclusion that they lose, but to look and it and go "They lose" and not even really think about it is what I mean...)

I originally thought the two teams were fairly evenly matched, all things considered, but the poll definitely shows otherwise...So apparently I was wrong. *shrugs* Oh well.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2009, 05:16:27 AM »
Thats an issure Stephen Erickson adresses in his books...just because you are in the minority doesn't mean you are wrong the majority can just as easily be wrong!!! And since i am in the minority with you the are most assuredly wrong because if they were right that would make me wrong and well that's just something that would go against the law of nature ;D
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Randomness

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #138 on: August 25, 2009, 01:41:34 AM »
Raoden actually draws to power aeons at once at the end to blast two different monks...and Elantrians are faster stronger more agile and better coordinated than average humans

That's true, but i wouldn't consider a Mistborn, a "normal" human. still they could, quite simply burn pewter and jump/dodge the said AonDor magic or Dahkor monks even with the monk and Elantrian's un-human speed.

Also they could burn atium to know what's going to happen.
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Czanos

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #139 on: August 28, 2009, 02:37:22 PM »
It's also much more difficult to do two different things with your hands, as opposed to drawing two of the same Aon, which is what Raoden does.
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little wilson

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #140 on: August 28, 2009, 09:41:15 PM »
It's also much more difficult to do two different things with your hands, as opposed to drawing two of the same Aon, which is what Raoden does.

Yeah. It takes a LOT of practice to get your hands to be doing two different things at the same time...Took me about 3 years on the piano to really  get used to that. Now (I've been playing for about 14 years) I can do it without thought.

I imagine it would a good year or two to be able to draw not only with your non-dominant hand, but also draw two different things simultaneously...And make sure they're precise like Aons have to be. Note that this timeframe is for all the Aons. Not just the more simple ones. Obviously, the more simple the Aon, the easier it will be to learn in your non-dominant hand. And, simple logic, the more you practice, the faster you get.
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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #141 on: August 29, 2009, 12:52:16 AM »
Personally i think misborns could win without feruchemists. if it were dahkor vs. feruchemists alone, i think dahkor would win...
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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #142 on: August 29, 2009, 04:11:52 AM »
I think in any battle with Feruchemists, it depends on how much stores they have.

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #143 on: September 01, 2009, 01:57:29 AM »
I think in any battle with Feruchemists, it depends on how much stores they have.

One thing i was thinking about today was, do the Dahkor monks have a certain amount of time they become demon-like? Or can they simply stay in that state as long as they want? Also could the Elantrians draw apon the AonDor as much as they want also? in that case it would only be fair to assume that Feruchemists and Mistborn could have unlimited reserves also. Again if that happened the feruchemists could simply keep drawing heath back from their metalmind... Haha i think i just confused myself a bit..
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little wilson

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #144 on: September 01, 2009, 04:17:22 AM »
I disagree with your comment about unlimited stores for Feruchemists and Mistborn. With those two, it's more about skill than it is about the reserve metals. Yes, how much you have available to you is important, but it doesn't matter if you have 4 vials of every single Allomantic metal if you suck.

Skill is also the most important factor with the Elantrians. It's not how much they draw upon the Dor. It's about how fast they draw and how many Aons they know. Therefore, the factor that should be even to "make the fight fair" is the skill level of the two opposing forces.

I don't want to keep repeating this, but you can't take an almost-end-of-HoA Vin (who has had 3-4 years to practice Allomancy) and pit her against an end-of-Elantris Raoden (who has had an awe-inspiring 2-3 months). THAT isn't fair.

As for your question about the monks. I have no idea. I don't think enough is currently known about the monks to tell. Perhaps we'll find out in 2015--when the sequel comes out.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #145 on: September 02, 2009, 01:35:09 AM »
I think in any battle with Feruchemists, it depends on how much stores they have.

In this case I don't entirely agree. I feel that the amount of stores a Feruchemist has available is important, it is also important how a feruchemist deals with not having enough stores. Look at what Sazed did when Tensoon broke him out of the kandra jail. He didn't have his metalminds so he used available sources of metal to change his current weight and speed by filling the bars and the lock. So say a feruchemist was out of his available stores. It would then be up to how they used their ability to store and draw at the same time. Just like a Mistborn it would become a more give and take type of fighting with excessive multi-tasking. They would be forced to maybe store weight to give them more speed then tap that weight when delivering a blow. It would be hard but I could see it being possible.
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Habeed

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #146 on: September 06, 2009, 07:04:59 PM »
What's the debate here?

In Elantris, the Aons can be used to work any arbitrarily complex spell.  Teleportation, healing, changing appearance, creating food from dirt, it's all possible.  For combat purposes, among other things, one can use an Aon to specifically target someone.  Hard to dodge a homing missile or magic effects that can't even be dodged.  (for instance, if you drew someone's name and then an Aon to cause death, would there be a projectile that could be dodged or would the effect simply happen?  Probably the latter, and the only defense would be either protective Aons of your own, or maybe in Elantris there aren't any death Aons written into the city) 

In Mistborn, all of the powers are very limited, and generally do exactly one thing only.  You can't "write down" a hugely complex spell and activate it later.

I liked the Mistborn magic system to, but there's just no contest here.  If an Elantrian is sufficiently prepared before battle and close enough to Elantris to be fully juiced up, there's simply no way he or she could lose.  It's most likely possible to create a hugely complex spell by carving it into something and to set the spell to activate when you draw a unique character.  So, by drawing one character, a spell could be set to teleport you around randomly, put a shield around you, block all mental effects, surround you with fire and whirling razor blades, and to automatically target any living being within 100 meters with everything you've got.  Only real limit is that Elantris the city has a finite amount of total magic available to everyone, and individual practitioners can only draw on so much power at once. 

There's a ton of weaknesses built into mistborn's magic.  Among other things, metal users can only push or pull things made out of metal...in elantris, one could write a sequence of Aons to fire pieces of something not made of metal (like rock) at supersonic speed towards any of your enemies.   Goodbye Mistborn. 

As for making your own Aeon that activates a sequence of other Aons...I am extrapolating, but not by much.  Elantris itself obvious has written into the city "translation" that somehow specify what each Aon will do in terms of a simpler form of a magic.  Like a high level versus a lower level programming language.   That's why the city broke in the book....a key library had it's name changed...

One final thing : Atium.  Atium only works if there is a WAY to win.  If there's no possible way to get close enough to that Elantrian surrounded by a shield and maybe whirling non metallic blades and protected by healing Aons set to repair any injury in seconds, you can't win. 

And why fight at all?  A clever Elantrian could simply have an Aon that teleported him home while replacing his body with an illusion that is booby trapped.  That's certainly what I would do : the trap would blast anyone who tried to harm my illusionary body.  If that didn't work, I'd return to the battlefield, invisible (yet another effect that is not available to a mistborn), and spend some time spying on my opponent to determine weaknesses.  Or perhaps simply remote scry my opponent : presumably that's yet another thing that can be done with Aons.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 07:34:19 PM by Habeed »

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #147 on: September 07, 2009, 12:06:45 AM »
I don't know ... you seem to assume there is no limit to what can be done with the magic system. That might be true, or it might not. We haven't really been told what the limits are to the system, since for almost the entire book, it was broken, anyway.

From my reading (and admittedly, I might have forgotten a bit that would indicate otherwise), I can't recall the prince learning to create any new glyphs, he just learned the ones that were already in existence, and fixed the major one that was broken.

Now here's an idea to work the other way ... can anybody think of any way that a powerful Mistborn could create enough damage to the grounds near the city of Elantris to create a big enough change in the Earth to invalidate the major glyph that the prince fixed? Break the whole system again, and the Mistborn could win pretty easily. (I will admit, however, that I cannot instantly think of a way for the Mitborn to do that kind of damage.)

Habeed

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #148 on: September 07, 2009, 01:38:29 AM »
I'll acknowledge that sabotaging elantris itself would be a great way to shut down their powers.  The Elantrians are so immensely powerful because they have the city...it's like a technological form of magic.  Their ancestors worked out how magic works, worked out the rules, and created the transformation and the glyphs and everything else so that they could live long, comfortable, peaceful lives.  But, as long as they have the city working, then there's no real contest between Mistborn/Ferunchemists and Elantrians.  There's a lot of magical effects in the book "Elantris" that simply cannot be duplicated by any powers in the Mistborn series.  Teleportation alone is an immensely powerful "effect" that pretty much trumps anything that the Mistborn or Ferunchemists have in their arsenal.  The fact that spells can target a specific person by name, making them unblockable (unless you're one of those monks) is also an effect that is pretty much unbeatable. 

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Elantris vs. Mistborn *Spoilers*
« Reply #149 on: September 07, 2009, 04:31:00 AM »
Names are never mentioned in the system and even though your on my side i have disagreements with you... the system currently is well finite. I am not saying that you can't achieve any given affect by undiscovered aeons and their modifications, but thats just it, they AREN'T discovered. I have made the point of advanced planning and people blew me off and i don't no why. Raoden is a tactical genious and could have beat Vin before she went all demi-god on us.
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz