Author Topic: Elantris vs. Mistborn Spoilers (Read 18715 times)

Inquisitor · « **Reply #105 on:** June 03, 2009, 05:10:45 PM »

We're not saying it wasn't a huge cost, we're saying Dilaf didn't view it as a huge cost.

happyman · « **Reply #106 on:** June 03, 2009, 06:07:52 PM »

Quote from: Inquisitor on June 03, 2009, 05:10:45 PM

We're not saying it wasn't a huge cost, we're saying Dilaf didn't view it as a huge cost.

I think it would be better stated that Dilaf thought the cost was worth it. With this monks life, he thought he was buying the loyalty of all the other monks. Even in-story, I don't think he did it for a lark. Also, if he did it too often, I suspect Wyrn would have talked with him. The bottom line must be considered at some point, after all.

Shaggy · « **Reply #107 on:** June 03, 2009, 06:53:17 PM »

I disagree. Dilaf was at least half-crazy, an angry zealot, ridiculously powerful, and (IMO) saw all others as beneath him. And all that stuff that you posted…yeah. Like Dilaf would be thinking about any of that.

Inquisitor · « **Reply #108 on:** June 03, 2009, 10:47:58 PM »

I felt like Dilaf's ultimate goal was to destroy Elantris. Anything that helped him toward that goal was a small price to pay.

Patriotic Kaz · « **Reply #109 on:** June 04, 2009, 05:05:18 PM »

Both Happyman and Inquisitor have made the best points so far... but back on topic Elantrians win if they have home field advantage though on Scardriel they are pretty weak...

happyman · « **Reply #110 on:** June 04, 2009, 05:13:38 PM »

Quote from: LAVGRS on June 03, 2009, 06:53:17 PM

I disagree. Dilaf was at least half-crazy, an angry zealot, ridiculously powerful, and (IMO) saw all others as beneath him. And all that stuff that you posted…yeah. Like Dilaf would be thinking about any of that.

Dilaf was crazy, not stupid. I don't think he would spend an expensive resource (like a human) unless he thought it was worth it. Remember, we don't know how often he did it.

Quote

I felt like Dilaf's ultimate goal was to destroy Elantris. Anything that helped him toward that goal was a small price to pay.

I absolutely agree. This means that somehow sacrificing a single monk to transport him to Wyrn's palace must have been considered worth it; Dilaf practically stated outright that it was intended to terrorize the other monks into strict compliance.

Also, I would like to point out to everybody here that my original statement said nothing about Dilaf's attitude towards human life or the purely monetary expense involved. I was saying that creating an ubermonk is expensive, and that this is a way to balance the magic system. The fact that Dilaf doesn't seem to care about any of this says much more about Dilaf than about the accuracy of my original assessment.

And this is relevant to the topic at hand. It means that ubermonks should be considered fairly rare when comparing magic systems. Not as expensive as, say, a God-king awakener, but still.

Shaggy · « **Reply #111 on:** June 04, 2009, 07:05:54 PM »

I know he wasn't stupid. Obviously. I, too, think that in such a situation, if I was on that side, I would think that sacrificing 50 lives was well worth creating a loyal, near-indestructible supermonster to help us.

happyman · « **Reply #112 on:** June 04, 2009, 08:26:41 PM »

Quote from: LAVGRS on June 04, 2009, 07:05:54 PM

I know he wasn't stupid. Obviously. I, too, think that in such a situation, if I was on that side, I would think that sacrificing 50 lives was well worth creating a loyal, near-indestructible supermonster to help us.

Yeah, from their point of view, it was worth it. If we considered ubermonks to be a form of military equipment, many different countries in the real world have spent as much money producing effective machines. It is indeed possible.

But it does cause some problems for them. For instance, it would be difficult to keep making ubermonks if the Elantrians figure out a consistent means of destroying them. Don't forget that the other side has their own form of super-soldier whose limitations are in location rather than expense. Thus a full-fledged assault on a prepared Elantris may be unfeasible.

Of course, this depends to some extent on the limitations of the supersoldier form that we aren't familiar with in detail. For instance, how do they distrupt the Dor? Is there an upper limit to how much damage they can take before their protection fails? Would it still be possible to destroy Dilaf with a big enough blast that overwhelms his protection?

Shaggy · « **Reply #113 on:** June 04, 2009, 08:34:20 PM »

Well, that's probably why (as far as we know) uber/supermonks were decidedly rare.

happyman · « **Reply #114 on:** June 05, 2009, 12:36:14 AM »

Quote from: LAVGRS on June 04, 2009, 08:34:20 PM

Well, that's probably why (as far as we know) uber/supermonks were decidedly rare.

My point exactly.

Shaggy · « **Reply #115 on:** June 05, 2009, 11:05:45 PM »

Then we're arguing towards the same thing. Let's stop.

happyman · « **Reply #116 on:** June 06, 2009, 12:08:22 AM »

Quote from: LAVGRS on June 05, 2009, 11:05:45 PM

Then we're arguing towards the same thing. Let's stop.

If it makes you feel better, I don't think it was so much an argument as a discussion. After all, we never called each other names or addressed anything other than the points raised. And alas, I must confess to having really wanted to get the bit about humans being expensive out. Brandon seems to like using human sacrifice as the evil parts of his magic system, and it seems to me that it comes with a hefty price-tag to me, even without considering the ethics. However, in the systems he uses it in, it makes sense, so all is well.

Shaggy · « **Reply #117 on:** June 07, 2009, 11:27:16 PM »

This is not the first time I've been told that my use of the word 'arguing' is misguided.

You're right; it really was just a discussion.

Hmm. Well, it certainly lends itself towards showing how cruel and unyielding many of his darker characters were.

Patriotic Kaz · « **Reply #118 on:** June 23, 2009, 12:20:59 AM »

Why does everyone miss understand the concept of argumentation... it is a form of disscussion to find answers you can not be invovled in argument if you have a closed mind it is simply a fight....i need to start watching my lectures on argumentation again less they go to waste... thanks for the reminder

Valkynphyre · « **Reply #119 on:** June 23, 2009, 02:35:52 AM »

I'm gonna say that Sazed-God comes in and wipes them all out for fighting. then nightblood comes along and destroys the entire world.

Spook wins.

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