Swear words, what to use.

[Necroben]

Another thing about cuss words is that they are very emotive.  With just one word you can express meaning and emotion and situation.  That's one of the reasons made-up words don't work for me.

And while I'm no expert on foreign language, some who are explained to me that many of the English swear words we use don't really translate well.  As wcarter4 said, write to your target audience.  A character saying another is a COW just doesn't have the same effect as SOB in America.

[jwdenzel]

I think we're having two conversations here.

1)  A judgmental discussion on whether or not cussing in novels is appropriate / acceptable / bad for your career, etc

and

2) How do you, as a fantasy author, create cuss words that are convincing and effective without bringing the reader out of the experience.

Personally, I think #1 is a fine diuscussion, but not one I'm interested in.  I'd love to hear more specific ideas about #2. Necroben brings up a good point that it's not necessarily the words themselves, but rather the delivery and context that makes it work.  That's why Robert Jordan's swearing is so good. 

And, FWIW, my favorite Robert Jordan cuss term is when Elayne says "Mother's milk in a cup!" 

[maxonennis]

And, FWIW, my favorite Robert Jordan cuss term is when Elayne says "Mother's milk in a cup!" 

That one always makes me gag.

[Loud_G]

The question is not whether or not to cuss in literature. It is not a matter of the roughness or pureness of a character. It is whether or not to use english language cultural elements in a situation/culture that would not make sense to the setting.

Fantasy novels are special circumstances. You cannot just port over cultural references all willy-nilly into a fantasy universe.

If I start talking about bales of hay in a society that has not yet invented a hay baler, I am mixing up my cultural (and temporal) references.

English language curse words are the same way in a fantasy setting. Each word has a specific history, origin, context, and reason for it being taboo. Contrary to popular belief it is not a curse word because it sounds harsh.

We have a few different types of curse words. There are the body part/function words. There are the religious words. And there are others.

And actually, here the body words and religious words are related because the body words represent a taboo for early (especially puritan) christian culture. Catholocism says sex is bad, so vulgar/common references to it became taboo.

The same follows for all of our curse words. There is a reason why they are taboo and that reason directly reflects the culture.

Taking this into consideration then, dropping an "f-bomb" while some may see this as adding grit/realism in fact takes away from the carefully planned culture of the story you are writing.

It is not censorship to leave english curses out of Fantasy any more than it is censorship to leave out references to Rome, Divince or NASA. To do so destroys the 'reality' of the culture you are creating.

Which is why I always recommend authors to think about the culture of the book first. Decide what are its taboos or holy things and THEN formulate simple curse words around those culture-specific themes.


This is why Jordan's words work so well and other fantasy writers may or may not. You have to REALLY understand the culture you are working with. Jordan was ALL about culture.

You can sometimes get away with a couple of the english language curse IF there is a similar cultural reason. For example Vin's use of "Lord" which was brought up earlier. It just happens to coincide with our word.

The person who talked about translation is right. This also why many times (thanks to Tolkien probably) authors refer to the book being a translation of the story from the language of the world we are reading about.
There SHOULD be things that do not have a direct coorelation to our world and culture. Author's should NOT just make up words to replace our curse words exactly. If they are being that lazy and that terrible at world building, they should just use the original words, because they've already broken the culture.....

So, if the made up word feels wrong in the story, that is probably because the culture did not dictate the word.
I submit that unless the story takes place in our world OR there is a strong correlary between cultural themes, you should NEVER use the various English language curse words in a work of Fantasy.

In short, it betrays all the work of world building and characterization.

[maxonennis]

I submit that unless the story takes place in our world OR there is a strong correlary between cultural themes, you should NEVER use the various English language curse words in a work of Fantasy.

In short, it betrays all the work of world building and characterization.

I STILL disagree. What f*** means now isn't it's original meaning, no doubt, but if your writing a fantasy that has a likewise vulgar word for sex then there is no uses in prettying it up. Doubtless, the world you create and the original meaning of f*** wouldn't match up, but the current use of the word would. Writing is all about getting the meaning across, not playing up the "uniqueness" of your world.

Jordan and Tolkien spent YEARS world building (Tolkien took decades, and Jordan too about four years), that's why they have all the individual, culturally relevant, and "unoffensive" cures (I don't think Tolkien's "cures words" could even count as cussing). Unless you plan on spending years world building, it's best to use the relatively closes existing cuss word.

[Loud_G]

I think you are confusing "playing up the uniqueness" with creating coherence.

You lose the chance to apply subtle characterization and cultural depth if you fall prey to the cliches of English vulgarities. (They are so boring too.) You could simply imply that someone is angry by having them spout the f word. OR you could actually do some prep work and make the world more realistic and the character more real by coming up with a cultural reason why they are using an expletive in the first place, expanding on the culture of their birth, commenting on their current situation, AND expressing their anger.

You get all this for adding one original curse instead of being lazy.

Our swear words just have no meaning anymore. 'Stronger' swear words have replaced 'weaker' ones in usage. (for example What the 'heck' becomes What the 'F'). Making absolutely no sense. They have become watered down cliches used as filler. I would think people would leap at the opportunity to create something original.

By that same logic, why don't we just use earth as the setting for all our stories, instead of playing up the uniqueness of your world?

If you are writing in spanish would you use english curse words? no.

Curse words in text are not supposed to simply be curse words. Every word in a story has to be there for a specific reason. ESPECIALLY when you are creating a world from scratch. (edit: Also, it isn't so much about what curse words do/mean to the reader as much as what they mean to the character saying them.)

And I disagree, writing may be about getting meaning across, but writing novels is about story. Plot and character and setting are all too important to be wasted on cliches.

[maxonennis]

You’re confusing lazy with practical. I don’t write six to ten book series focusing on the wide world and the diversity of people. I write standalones focusing on individual characters and trying to make them stand out with “close up shots”. Writing fake cuss words is a waste of time, because 1: my books only range about 90,000 words long (there isn’t a hole lot of time for excess crap). 2: my novels are character driven, not world oriented. 3: I want to, in that small amount of time, make my characters as relatable as possible—using real cuss words does this.

I also see how you think George RR Martian, Gene Wolfe, and Joe Abercrombie are all lazy writers. 

[Reaves]

GRRM is incredibly lazy, at turning out books at least. But that is another discussion I'm not really interested in.

Also, did Tolkien actually make up any curses? I keep on thinking of The Hobbit, where Gollum literally says "Curses!" 

As someone mentioned, whether you should use English curses really mostly depends on what kind of world you have. For example, in Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards sequence, he actually uses some French and Latin terms. He quotes poets and Chinese proverbs wholesale from our world into some of the chapter and section headings. It is all a matter of choice. (Also, there are copious amounts of English curses  )

And actually, here the body words and religious words are related because the body words represent a taboo for early (especially puritan) christian culture. Catholocism says sex is bad, so vulgar/common references to it became taboo.

I wouldn't make assumptions about the Puritans. They were not Catholic, and neither did they think sex was sinful. In fact they would exercise punishment against husbands who neglected their marital duties      I quite understand your point though about the general attitude of Catholic Christianity.

[jwdenzel]

I wouldn't make assumptions about the Puritans. They were not Catholic, and neither did they think sex was sinful. In fact they would exercise punishment against husbands who neglected their marital duties      I quite understand your point though about the general attitude of Catholic Christianity.

We're getting way off topic here, but before the moderators shut this down.... 

Don't be fooled.  ALL of the Western religions have taboos on sex.  The Puritans were fine with married couples and (as most Christian faiths preach) believed that you should be out there going at it because it resulted in babies.   But casual sex for pleasure, or sex outside of marriage was a bad thing to them. 

As a person who was brought up Catholic here in the USA, it took me a long time for me to be able to step back and see that, to a very large portion of the world, (ie, to cultures other than American or European Judo-Christian) sex is not a big deal and something that should be celebrated and shared first, not bottled up and repressed.

And for the record... read my comments above carefully. I make no  judgements, nor am I taking sides.  Just stating observations.

(I should be a politician)

[Reaves]

I've been reading through my email inbox and discovered an interesting thing. I've been subscribing to a series of writing tips from David Farland/Wolverton and found one on profanity. It doesn't specifically address profanity in fantasy or science fiction but rather how to do it well, or if you should. Its pretty interesting. I'm not going to summarize it, but I can forward it to those who would like me to; just send me a PM with your email. Also, if you'd like to subscribe (its free) send a message to [email protected] saying "Kick me!"  (btw thats not a joke, thats actually how you get on the list.)

[deckacards]

ok...been gone for a while dealing with virus issues...so couldn't respond...

Let me start with this, maxo:

Quote from: deckacards on Yesterday at 07:47:12 AM
For me, honestly...unless i'm doing a short story and it's relevant/fits, I avoid anything stronger than "shirt"...f*bombs and sexually explicit cuss words may add a little bit more to your character, but at great expense to your story.

I completely disagree. If, like in my newest book, all your characters are at best the scum of the earth then cussing fits. In PHYLES all my characters were well educated, and were always out of a position in which they could curse without repercussions due to class differences. otherwise cussing would've fit there too.

Maxo...let me be clear...if it fits...IF it fits...then you should absolutely cuss...I would go so far as to say IF it fits, then you have an obligation to your story to cuss and cuss as strongly as need be to FIT...

My point is this...many people I read that cuss in their writing (talking unpublished or rarely published here...) do NOT understand the impact a single cuss word can have on the tone of your story. I don't really think you're disagreeing with me...you just said that it fits in one story, so you do it...but in another, it does not. 

Cussing strongly in a story has an impact on the story that many writers do not realize...it just does. In a way, I think this could be made into a "Kill your darlings" discussion...you write a character that you love to write...and you feel that character would use the f*word...and so, you write it...but sometimes a writer has to realize that using the f*word will have an unintended impact on the tone of the story...you want the impact to be localized to a character...but you don't control how a reader will READ the story...and it is difficult to localize the impact of the f*word in a story...it just is....then, you have to make a decision...is it SO important that your character cuss that you risk casting an inaccurate tone on the story? maybe the answer is yes...which could be the definition of "fit"...but maybe it is no...and in that case, even if your character really would say it, you have to kill your darling and cut out the f*word for the betterment of the story.

Okay...what else has been said...

[deckacards]

Don't be fooled.  ALL of the Western religions have taboos on sex.  The Puritans were fine with married couples and (as most Christian faiths preach) believed that you should be out there going at it because it resulted in babies.   But casual sex for pleasure, or sex outside of marriage was a bad thing to them. 

As a person who was brought up Catholic here in the USA, it took me a long time for me to be able to step back and see that, to a very large portion of the world, (ie, to cultures other than American or European Judo-Christian) sex is not a big deal and something that should be celebrated and shared first, not bottled up and repressed.

hehe...I can't help it...I gotta' weigh in on this...as a "Judeo-Christian" (actually...most of my experience is Southern Baptist *shiver*...) and a person who has been married twice, had sex in and out of marriage, had all kinds of opinions about sex over the years, etc. etc. ....and NOW I'm studying to be a Christian Marriage and Family Therapy Counselor...let me say this:

The Christian belief does not have a "taboo" about sex...quite the opposite...but, unfortunately, it is usually mistaken as a "taboo" (now, this does not account for those Christians who get it wrong...I'm talking about the actual belief...). In fact, Christians LOVE sex...so much so that it is seen as a holy act between two people...an opportunity to share and come together "as one"...a gift from God to be enjoyed to the fullest by His people. AS A RESULT...they want to treat sex as a somewhat holy experience...meaning, they believe sex is intended to be shared in a certain way...if it is not shared in the way they believe to be holy, then they see it as a perversion of a holy act.

They don't believe sex is taboo or bad...they believe sex is holy...and should be treated as such...protected...their actions/words/etc. are, more often than not, born out of a desire to protect the holy nature of sexuality.

Of course...many, many Christians have gotten it wrong over the years...but many, many cultures have gotten a LOT of things wrong over the years...but their mistakes rarely come up in conversation because that person didn't grow up in that culture and therefore can't blame that culture for oppressing them as a child...but our culture sure can.

Not trying to pick on you jwdenzel...your quote was just the easiest to post and then respond...please don't think I was attacking/disagreeing with you...really.

And now...we are officially WAY off topic...F**K!!!!

[Necroben]

Wow, that could be a centrel part of a story right there.  Along with cuss words.

[Karl]

There is a fascinating article in Wikipedia about 'minced oaths' that examines them in both actual English speaking as well as in a variety of literary and film sources. Saying 'f-bomb' is a form of minced oath in that it attempts to soften the impact of a profanity while still convaying the origianl meaning.

My favorite two minced oaths are 'zounds!', short for 'God's wounds!' and 'gadzooks!', short for 'God's hooks!' (the nails he was crizified with). 150 years ago these would have been mighty strong words, but now sound quaint!

'Bloody' is a sluring of 'by Our Lady', meaning the Virgin Mary.

Two of my favorite Gorram TV shows are mentioned in the article for their minced oaths: Battlestar Galactica (both original and reimagined) and Firefly.

And Mr. Jordan is mentioned for all of you WoT folk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minced_oath

For my own writing I don't specifically avoid foul language. However, I'm very particular as to which characters swear and their choice of profanity. I have a main character that has never sworn. But his girlfriend will swear like a sailor! And I've been experimenting with some of the characters using the un-minced phrases like 'God's wounds.'

[Skar]

Interesting discussion, even the off-topic bits.

I'm in the middle of a MiltarySF/AdventureSF novel and this swearing business is really causing me a headache.  I've served in the military so I can tell you that many/most military folks swear, a lot.  At the same time, swear words in a real world military setting carry a very different impact and meaning than the same words in a civilian setting.  I want my kids and my mother-in-law to be able to read my books without being offended so I try to leave out the swear words.  But when I write dialogue, a soldier who has just decided to disobey orders and risk his life to accomplish the mission does not say "darn" or "shoot".

From what I've read here I think I may have to put a bit more thought into creating new swear words that are grounded in the culture of my world so that those who want to hear "shoot" can and those who want to hear "f#$@" can too.