Swear words, what to use.

[Revast]

Disclaimer: If you don't like (or better can't discuss) foul language please stop reading.

I was reading Deckacards review for Chapter 1: Memory, and there was a small discussion on using the world Bloody as a swearing word. It was suggested that it felt to Robert Jordan. Do most other feel this way?

This is something I've really been struggling with in my current writing. I have great difficulty using words like 'F**k/f**king', 'C**t', etc... For some reason I feel OK with s**t, bloody, and arse/A**. Also I would worry that including the most in your face cuss words in the English language might turn off many readers, but they do seem to fit better.

I do not like the idea of making up cuss words. Every book I've ever read that does that I just sat there thinking "Why not say the real thing if that's what you mean." Bloody seems different because it is a real cuss world in the Merry old England. Any thoughts? What do you do? Sometimes I feel like I should just go with how the characters are really saying it in my head rather than censoring them, but I haven't been able to get myself to do it.

[deckacards]

For me, honestly...unless i'm doing a short story and it's relevant/fits, I avoid anything stronger than "shirt"...f*bombs and sexually explicit cuss words may add a little bit more to your character, but at great expense to your story. Strong cussing based on real cuss words that carry meaning for the reader have too great an impact on the feel of your story. They distract from it and give your story a feel you're not going for...it becomes too difficult for the reader to separate the feel of the character from the tone of your story. Cuss words are VERY visible.

Regarding made-up cuss words...I think there are two reasons, in my opinion, this doesn't work WHEN it doesn't work : 1) The writer over-does it...they make-up a replacement cuss word for every conceivable cuss word in the English language. It just sounds "hinky"... 2) The writer just doesn't take the time to come up with a decent word. I see tons of published authors that I would swear just changed a letter or two in a real cuss word and didn't give any thought to sound, feel, etc.  A cuss word really has to SOUND and FEEL like a cuss word. If not, it's just awkward. I really think many authors don't realize how much of an impact cuss words have on dialgue/scenes/characters/and story tone.

For the most part, however, i think good made-up words work great...cuss words are highly rooted in culture...and using words not part of their culture will expose your character.

I would also throw in a note about establishing your cuss words. If you make-up a word, the tricky thing is establishing it without over-using it. Many of the cuss words we have in real life sound good because we've heard them a lot. So, if you use a cuss word once in a critical scene and then never before or again, it's just awkward dialogue. But if you establish it by using it here or there throughout with the right characters without over-using it...then it sounds normal.

Ultimately...I do whatever I think the character would really say within the proper tone of the story. Of course, if you establish in your head a spectrum of cussing - for example: "bloody" is the worst but other words you make up are less in severity - then the characters can react to a character's foul language when they use bloody...then, they sound like an f*bomb character without distracting from the story...like in Robert Jordan's books.

just my opinions, though...

[M]

I agree with deckacards.  In no way am I trying to come off preachy, but ask yourself, "Does my story really need these words?" and "Will I be ashamed if my mother, wife, husband, children, boss read these expletives.  The token answer among those with low self-esteem is to brush it off and say, "I don't care what anyone thinks."  But the reality is, your work is your legacy.  What do you want people to remember you for?  A foul mouth or a brilliant author.   IMHO, it makes the author sound immature, like they are stuck in high school.  A good example would be rappers.  I actually like some rap music, but ultimately I get turned off by the swearing.  The sad part is, the rapper "usually" has such a beautiful gift to be able to sing in such a way, but the talent and appreciation is lost in the choice of words used. 

Granted, if you are going to write a story that is set in a world or setting that would use such words...you would be lying to try and hide that aspect of reality.  For example, you couldn't write a story about a high school locker room without having swear words.  It would be foolish to ignore it.  So what do you do?  I honestly don't have the answer.  I like the idea of made up swear words, but I can see how it would sound dumb. 

I guess what my rant is...if you don't need to use them...don't.  I doesn't make your characters any more "real".  It can and will damage them and you in the long run. 

*M steps down from his soapbox*

[maxonennis]

Not so much in PHYLES (not at all to be honest), but in my current book cussing fits like a charm and I've dropped a lot of F-bombs.

As for the word "bloody", I always think of England...

For me, honestly...unless i'm doing a short story and it's relevant/fits, I avoid anything stronger than "shirt"...f*bombs and sexually explicit cuss words may add a little bit more to your character, but at great expense to your story.

I completely disagree. If, like in my newest book, all your characters are at best the scum of the earth then cussing fits. In PHYLES all my characters were well educated, and were always out of a position in which they could curse without repercussions due to class differences. otherwise cussing would've fit there too.

[maxonennis]

  In no way am I trying to come off preachy, but ask yourself, "Does my story really need these words?" and "Will I be ashamed if my mother, wife, husband, children, boss read these expletives.  The token answer among those with low self-esteem is to brush it off and say, "I don't care what anyone thinks." 

I have no family, and I really couldn't care less if people don't like cussing in my books. I give fair warnings, that's enough.

[Silk]

Hey, Revast, can I ask you to censor your first post? I know you're just making a point, but I'm pretty sure the Powers That Be would like to keep the forum free of swearing.

And now, somewhat ironically after asking you to censor your post, I'm going to turn around and say I don't really think you SHOULD censor yourself while writing.

First off, I think made-up swear words are very, very hard to do right. In fact, Jordan is one of the few people whose made-up swearwords I could read without rolling my eyes (and we've had eleven big fat books to get used to his cuss words). A lot of times it seems authors with made-up curse words just come up with things that sound dumb, and if it sounds dumb, I'll be annoyed and wondering why they didn't just say what they mean.

The other thing is, there's a difference between a character who drops the F-bomb when he's closed his fingers in a door, and a character who just says "shoot". So I do think it does, or can, make a difference to your characterization.

I don't think it makes an author look immature, either, at least not if it's done correctly. If a character's gonna swear, let him swear. It's when the swearing becomes gratuitous - when the author is putting the swearing in there just because he can - that it becomes annoying and makes the author look immature or incompetent.

If it's true to your characterization, let it stay there (and only then). You might alienate some people in your audience who are uncomfortable with that, but you can't please everyone. Ultimately, as long as it's something you're comfortable signing your own name to, just do whatever you want.

[Revast]

Is that edited enough? Or would you rather I removed the words altogether and made it a more generic question?

[Reaves]

Using real cusses in the English language will give your work more of a grounded, "gritty" feel to it. It will make it seem slightly less removed, which in my opinion is generally a good thing.

Many people said that they liked the way Jordan did his curses, and I agree. I think that is because they aren't one-f0r-one translations. "Blood and bloody ashes" really doesn't translate to anything we say, although its used the same way as "oh, shirt."

Also, you probably want the curses to come directly from your world. For example, Vin says, "Oh, Lord" which comes from, of course, The Lord Ruler. It doesn't work as well for me as it might for some because I connect people who say that with elderly southern baptists, but hey. "Oh, lawdy!"    Its a good example of the world directly informing the words the characters use.

In my Crystalheart work, the characters swear. However I've avoided using f*** because personally, thats a line I just don't want to cross. I've decided not to go there. However, I've introduced a character who uses mild profanity almost constantly, and sometimes its a bit of a challenge to find a replacement that fits 

[maxonennis]

However I've avoided using f*** because personally, thats a line I just don't want to cross.

I don't see that as an author crossing a line, but a character's use of language. And I don't think it directly reflects on the author BECAUSE he/she is trying to honestly voice a character. If the character would say a cuss word in a given situation, then go ahead and put it in, IMO.

[Silk]

Yeah, I think that's fine Revast. Thanks.

Reaves makes an interesting point regarding Jordan's cuss words and lack of an exact "translation". I'd never thought of that before...

[Reaves]

However I've avoided using f*** because personally, thats a line I just don't want to cross.

I don't see that as an author crossing a line, but a character's use of language. And I don't think it directly reflects on the author BECAUSE he/she is trying to honestly voice a character. If the character would say a cuss word in a given situation, then go ahead and put it in, IMO.

I understand what you're saying. However its just something that I don't want in my book right now. Somewhere along the way that may change, in a different story, but for now thats just a barrier I've set for myself. I don't want to be reading that in my own work and I don't want other people reading that in it either.

[Flo_the_G]

Dialogue isn't a direct copy of real life speech. Accordingly, I think that the infamous f-word and the like should stay out of it, because they always stand out. Their real words in an environment that merely aims to appear real. So just as we take needless repetition, pauses and filler words out of written dialogue, we should take the foul language down a notch. Then it'll still be bloody obvious that the character is swearing, but it won't be as noticable and won't distract the reader.

Or maybe that's just me.

[wcarter4]

There is one other aspect of this to keep in mind everyone is forgetting: write to your audience. If you are writing to children and dropping the F bomb, you are going to get black listed by parents. If however your characters are not acting believable and conveying how they feel through speech, older readers won't find them believable (i.e. If I were to slam my finger in a heavy metal door I would probably yell something bad despite my tendency not to cuss).

[maxonennis]

Dialogue isn't a direct copy of real life speech. Accordingly, I think that the infamous f-word and the like should stay out of it, because they always stand out. Their real words in an environment that merely aims to appear real. So just as we take needless repetition, pauses and filler words out of written dialogue, we should take the foul language down a notch. Then it'll still be bloody obvious that the character is swearing, but it won't be as noticeable and won't distract the reader.

Cussing only distracts when it's awkward (fake words), or out of character. There a few people who would have a finger bitten off and not shout a cuss word (yeah, I'm looking at you Frodo).

[readerMom]

It is a lot about who you are and your background.  My father is a pipefitter (that a welder on REALLY big projects, refineries and things). I grew up in a very blue-collar home.  My husband's mother told me once she thought Ender's Game was a terrible book and how could any decent person read it-because of the swearing.  So we have often had conversations about what constitutes "a lot of swearing" in any given book.  He notices much more than I do and it bothers him more.  If we were to write novels I think that difference would show up in our word choices.
I think David Weber is a good example of swearing matching the character and the setting.  The bad guys are always the worst, the commanding officers rarely swear and the battle scenes always have much more.  It is not a casual thing to him, or so I believe seeing how he writes.