Author Topic: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?  (Read 39054 times)

Shaggy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2009, 09:05:27 PM »
Quote
Actually R.I.P stands for Requiescat In Pace.
Whatever. My point goes both ways.
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Cynewulf

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2009, 09:22:16 PM »
Cynewulf, I see you're ignoring substantive replies to your claims. If you're going to do that, you should just stop posting in the thread. No one here is interested in you using it as a pulpit instead of a discussion thread.

You are right, of course, and that was bad form. Apologies. As for people not being interested in my using this thread as a pulpit, that may certainly be the case. This thread was, however, in dire need of some balancing of the preachers present here. There does not seem to be much room for the discussion you want in an environment filled with people who can categorically state that Abraham is a historical person, and that the Exodus from Egypt happened as described. I do not think people are interested in a debate over the facts behind the stories and legends of the Jewish people, but I will certainly take that discussion, too, as I find it much more interesting than this one.

Now, for your points:

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Cynewulf, I'm not sure why you used the word polemic, as the dictionary definition doesn't seem to apply to this circumstance.

Dictionary definitions should never be taken too seriously. They are hopelessly insufficient, and can not be said to provide anything other than guidelines  to the extralinguistic phenomena in the real world that words signify. If you want, I can give you a brief explanation of what I meant. You willfully distorted my argument in order to make it easier to respond to, as well as lend your argument increased credence. That relates closely enough to the dictionaty definiton of "polemic" to be a valid usage, as I see it.  Some might disagree, however.

As to your list of reasons why someone might find another person attractive: They are all fair. Still, in the context of a romantic and sexual relationship they seem like fringe factors. However, that is not the point. I never claimed that all interpersonal attraction is sexually grounded. My initial claim was in response to an obviously very young girl's claim that none of her male friends had sexual thoughts and associations toward girls to whom they were attracted. Now, please do correct me if I am wrong, but is it not common in the United States to understand "attraction" as romantic attraction in the case of a youngster referring to males being attracted to females? Is it not common usage in the United States, and indeed in the rest of the English speaking world, to understand "attracted to" as a somewhat weaker form of "in love with", in contexts such as this? Because this is the context to which I responded. Of course other forms of attraction are possible, which are not sexual in nature. However, romantic attraction is deeply rooted in the sexual, even though other, less visceral "reasons" for attraction are possible at later stages. That does not mean, as I tried to point out in my initial post, that sexual acts are a necessary and unavoidable result. If they are, however, there is nothing wrong or "dirty" or "sinful" with that, either. In my opinion.

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Can't you think that members of your family are attractive? That doesn't mean you want to have sex with them. What if you think friends of your same sex are attractive? That doesn't mean you're homosexual. Don't you distinguish between cute kids and not so cute kids? Let's start calling everyone pedophiliacs.

What you are talking about is having a cognitive realisation that  certain people "are" attractive. That is by no means the same as being attracted to them, in the usage of the word specified here. It is possible to "know" that one's mother is attractive. If you are attracted to her, however, (again, for the slow of understanding, in the meaning of the word I have clarified in this context) then you are probably in some sort of trouble.

Cynewulf

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2009, 09:28:24 PM »
Quote
Actually R.I.P stands for Requiescat In Pace.
Whatever. My point goes both ways.


Also, Latin is a synthetic language, which makes word order near-irrelevant.

Shaggy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #108 on: January 28, 2009, 09:39:21 PM »
Thank you, Cyne! For those who have never taken Latin, here's an example:

Shaggius ex agris et in villam currit. That means, 'Shaggy runs out of the fields and into the country house.'
If I put rearranged the letters a bit, like this, 'Currit Shaggius ex agris et in villam. It would still mean the same thing. Although it's pretty standard to put the verb at the end and the noun at the beginning. But still.
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little wilson

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #109 on: January 28, 2009, 09:39:50 PM »
My initial claim was in response to an obviously very young girl's claim that none of her male friends had sexual thoughts and associations toward girls to whom they were attracted.

Obviously very young? I'm 21. Almost 22....When did that translate into "obviously very young"? Sure, I'm younger than the 30 year olds here, but....I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others my age....And again, I never said that my friends NEVER have sexual thoughts. I said it didn't take up much of their thoughts, and that they didn't have them every time they see the girl. Granted, I'm not inside their heads so I can't be positive, but many of these guys I know very well since I've grown up around them and I can guess fairly accurately about their train of thought.

Also, I might as well distinguish that the guys I'm referring to are single, as in never married.

And those stats that were posted before I don't think ever differentiated between married and single men. Maybe a decent portion of that 53% was a daily sexual thought about their wife....

You were right in your assumption about the definition of attraction for youth....But I'm not exactly young (I'm assuming you thought  I was what? 14? 15?) and I know very well that there are other forms of attraction. I was using that idea, along with a mild usage of the attracted to as in "a lesser form of love"....
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Shaggy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2009, 09:44:38 PM »
Ummm…very young would probably refer to me. I'm 12. Which is like ten years younger than Little Wil. So if I'm very young, then she's…well, not. Yeah.
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Bookstore Guy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #111 on: January 28, 2009, 09:50:14 PM »
once again, what does all this have to do with the price of food in China? This thread has turned into a thread of constant bickering and "i'm more correct than you" with a good measure of word twisting thrown in.

This thread's title says "Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn Series...missing?" The only thing missing is the actual discussion on that topic. I purposely threw the pizza bull crap in there because it has as much relevance to Elend and Vin's fake world and culture as do the last 4 pages of conversation.

If people want to use the same repetitive arguments to endlessly tell others how wrong they are, then move the thread somewhere else other than Brandon's forum.

for frak's sake...
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Cynewulf

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #112 on: January 28, 2009, 09:55:33 PM »
I am a bit surprised that you are only twelve, Shaggy. Well done to have the dedication and interest to learn Latin at that tender age. Cheers!

Wilson, I am a bit confused now. When you said "I know them well enough that they DON'T have sexual thoughts about girls they're attracted to", what did you mean by "attracted to"? I have explained what I meant, and I will stand by the claim that sexuality is integral to attraction in the sense discussed here, viz. a weaker form of "in love with". That means that if your friends are attracted to someone in the sense discussed above, they will inevitably have sexual thoughts about them. It is also important to keep in mind that thoughts are not the same as silent speech. Our thought processes do not work that way. Given that, I would say that it is completely impossible for you to know their trains of thought, no matter how long you have known them. Additionally, I do not think there is much grounds to claim that the cognitive processes of married men are any different to their unmarried fellows.

Dangerbutton

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2009, 10:01:24 PM »
Pepperoni, Bacon (breakfast bacon, not canadian bacon) and either banana peppers or chopped garlic.
However, if you're ordering pizza for a pink unicorn (male or female), they like magical goblinberries with fairy dust on their pizza.

Shaggy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #114 on: January 28, 2009, 10:04:25 PM »
Thanks, Cyne. But…it's actually required for 7th and 8th graders at my school. Not that I wouldn't have taken it otherwise.   8)
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Cynewulf

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #115 on: January 28, 2009, 10:06:04 PM »
Come now, your boss wanted a response from me to some substantive points made against my position, and I have made one. Please take your discussions relating to Italian foodstuffs elsewhere.

On a serious note, I doubt Mr. Sanderson minds a little tangent. It must be a desire of many Fantasy authors to have recognised the relevance of their work to the real world, and have it spark a discussion.

Shaggy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2009, 10:10:42 PM »
And I'm sure if we all tried really, really hard, we could all connect the pizza thing back to 'Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series…missing?'
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little wilson

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2009, 10:16:00 PM »
Cyne, I see what you're saying. And the "attracted to" that I meant was referring to either someone they find attractive, OR someone that they are attracted to--lesser form of love....

And yeah, silent speech isn't the same as thoughts....Hmm. I also think I was partially basing the attracted to non-sexual thoughts off my own personal experience. I can be attracted to someone and not think about it sexually....And I understand well that guys don't think the same as girls, and as much as I can use the fact that I am more like a guy than I am a girl (my gender is pretty much the only thing that ties to me to femininity/whatever...), I doubt that argument works in this case. :P

And since I've been off-topic. Mistborn. I don't think the lack of sexuality in the book detracted at all from the experience reading it. I don't think it makes the books sensored if the POV was somewhere else when the sexual thoughts were going on. It's probably better that way, because like others have said, having the sexuality in the book would've detracted from the plot. At least for me. The trilogy wasn't about romance, and sex, or anything like that. It was about the heist, and the seige, and the destruction of Ruin.

And thanks, Shaggy. Now you've got me thinking of some way to tie pizza toppings back to it....Geez. As if I wasn't already wasting enough time as it is....
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Shaggy

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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #118 on: January 28, 2009, 10:18:18 PM »
Guys may think differently from girls but guys think differently from guys and girls think differently from girls so if you think about it everyone thinks differently from everyone.
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Re: Sex and sexuality in the Mistborn series...missing?
« Reply #119 on: January 28, 2009, 10:24:52 PM »
Ookla isnt my boss, and i doubt he wants to torture himself by working where I do...it's...awful... /cry

Oh i think some tangentially related material is ok, but we are to the point where we are arguing religion and sex - two subjects that people can never agree on - just like pizza toppings. The thing that bothers me is a perceived tone to some of your responses. They can seem condescending and rude. this just seems like endless bickering using reworded arguments. I participated, so im just as guilty as the rest, but there's no point to it anymore.


Shaggy - that's crazy they teach Latin there. Of course, I came from Sacramento where the education system doesnt really exist...

Marsh likes marshmallow pizza, and he thinks the aroma is sexy.  See.  I'm totally fine.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 10:26:43 PM by Used to be an Important Bookstore Guy »
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