Religion in Mistborn and Elantris --AML do-over (SPOILERS)

[Emmaleem]

Greetings, everyone--I'm new here. I just finished the last Mistborn book, and I am kicking myself for not reading the whole series much sooner.  Specifically, I really wish I'd read them before the AML (Association for Mormon Letters) meeting last fall.  Brandon Sanderson and Daniel Wells together hosted a session on religion in science fiction and fantasy.  It was sparsely attended, but very very interesting.  Based on what I heard there, and on a friend's fervent recommendation, I read and loved Elantris.  And I just now treated myself to reading the last two Mistborn books (because I broke my leg, and I have a lot of down time). I have to say that the treatment of religion in Brandon's books is so very interesting to me.

So: if I were in that session again, here are some things I would comment or ask (and, as a newbie, I ask forgiveness if these are issues that have already been discussed here to death):

Are the Sazed/Joseph Smith parallels deliberate, as in something you planned, or did they just evolve? (Sazed as a searcher for the true religion, has a mystical experience, discovers that he is the restorer of the true religion in its original, ideal state... Joseph Smith as a seeker of the true religion, has a mystical experience, discovers that he is a restorer of Christianity in its original state.)

Ditto with the writing on steel/Book of Mormon golden plates references.

I loved the way that Sazed recreated the world based on truths from other religions.  In what way do other religious worldviews influence your work (I read here on the forum that you've borrowed the dark/light balance from Buddhism, for example)

I'm fascinated by all the different characters' responses to religion.  Kelsier creates his own, through his own martyrdom, so that he can inspire his followers even after he dies (hmmm... another Joseph Smith parallel?)  Then Vin resents being turned into an object of belief, while Elend converts from duty, rather than from a true conversion experience.  Spook has to learn to distinguish between the voice of Ruin, and his own internal compass of truth. 

Based on the martyrdom=create a religion idea, the deaths of Vin and Elend could lead to a new religion.  They lend themselves to an Adam/Eve creation myth sort of thing.

On Elantris...
I just loved Hrathen's character.  So devout, and so blind, and then redeemed in the end.  I love what that says about the whole picture of a person, that you have to take their entire life into account before judging. 

I think it's nice to have all those shades of good and evil in here--you've got extreme good in Raoden, and extreme evil in Dilaf, and then that nuanced character Hrathen. 

***
I could go on.  But mostly, I wish I had read your books in time to have already had this discussion.  Thanks for writing such great books.

[jjb]

I love the irony of you calling Mormonism, Christianity in its original form and then talking about Hrathen who was so devout and yet so blind. Of course, you and Sanderson and every other Mormon on this board won't see any irony in that and I've probably just made enemies.


I think Sanderson said that since he is writing fantasy, he doesn't try and emulate real-world religions in the religions of his books. Of course, he could have unconsciously created Sazed's situation fairly similar to Joseph Smith's(so you say).

[Czanos]

Mormons can appreciate irony too. I had nearly the same reaction as you, jjb, when I read the initial post, and I'm a member of the LDS church. Openness of mind is hardly a disqualification of Mormonism.

As for the rest of it, I have to agree. Writers write about what they know, particularly near the beginning of their career. It improves the quality of any service if the service is the answer to the provider's own problem. I don't think Brandon was necessarily trying to put these influences in his works, but they are a part of his life, so they are included in the things he produces.

[darxbane]

jjb - I find it more ironic that you just stereo-typed an entire group of people based on one post, which you apparently misread.  Particularly, the second part of the Hrathen statement (you must look at a person's entire life in order to judge them).  I also didn't see him "calling" the original form of anything (whatever that means); he was asking if there were any parallel's between the LDS beliefs and the stories.  You can't even be certain that he is Mormon, or if he is just interested in religion in general.  That didn't stop you from lashing out.  Have issues with religious people, do you?  I am not LDS, nor am I particularly religious,  just in case you ask.

[Vatdoro]

Don't worry, jjb. The irony isn't lost on us Mormons either. :p

When I read the end of HoA I didn't take Sazed's ascension as him becoming "the restorer of the true religion in its original, ideal state." Sazed became what you might call a divine power, but the book doesn't mention any organized/structured religion being created from what Sazed told them in the book. I think a lot of us assume that a religion was probably created after that point, but we don't know how much communication was available between the people and Sazed, which would be necessary to keep the religion "pure".

On a different note - about religious influences on Brandon's writing. I heard Brandon say in a Podcast at Dragonmount.com that he intentionally works very hard to develop his characters that have different or opposing religious beliefs than his personal beliefs. He refers to himself as being a very religious person and he understands that his beliefs effect his writing, even if it is subconsciously. To counteract the tendency to focus character development on characters who match one's personal beliefs, he works extra hard to write believable characters with opposing/different beliefs than his own.

For a better explanation than that, you can listen to Brandon's own explanation (it's much better), but  the podcast is VERY long and I don't remember where in the podcast this was brought up.

[jjb]

darkxbane-Where in the post was I lashing out? And where was I stereotyping Mormons? Is it where I said, "Of course, you and Sanderson and every other Mormon on this board won't see any irony in that and I've probably just made enemies." All I meant by that is that is that they believe most of what Emmaleem said about Joseph Smith and all the stuff connected with him, so I assumed they wouldn't see the irony in that(though apparently they do).

And sorry for assuming he/she is Mormon. I assumed that attending the Association for Mormon Letters probably means he/she is Mormon.

[darxbane]

He may very well be a Mormon.  I didn't see anything about this Association in his post, but maybe it's somewhere else and I missed it.  You made some pretty big assumptions that mormons on this board would not understand the irony of Emaleem's post, and that by pointing it out many would dislike you.  If that is not stereotyping, then what is?  Also, your comments sounded condescending, in my opinion.  It sounded like you were baiting people to defend themselves and maybe even throw some barbs your way, which would make your generalization appear true.  Am I way off base here?  Anyone else agree, disagree?

[Emmaleem]

jjb, I can see the irony now that you point it out.    I get it, but I'm a believer anyway.  And darxbane, thanks for sticking up for me.  No worries--I'm not here to pick a fight or take offense where none was intended (or even where it was intended.  Life is too short.)

 I am indeed a Mormon--the Association for Mormon Letters is an organization dedicated to studying and discussion of Mormon literature.  Brandon's session was by far my favorite at the conference.   I write and edit for Segullah: Writings by Latter-day Saint Women, which is a journal of memoir/essays/poetry, and so I went to the conference with a bunch of my Segullah friends, one of whom is a big Brandon Sanderson fan.

Vatdoro, thanks for the podcast link.  I should have a chance to listen to it while I am resting my leg and my kids are at school (I'm a SAHM).

What I'm interested in is not just the ways Mormon themes show up in Brandon's books, but really the role of religion in all of them. Heck, you could write a paper analyzing religion's role in his worlds.  In some of the fantasy I've read (and I'm admittedly not super well read.  Not enough of a scholar to fit in the AML, not up to speed with fantasy either. sigh. But I enjoy dabbling in both.) whatever operating magic exists in the world becomes the religion, but it's not organized or formal, no priests or systems.  Brandon's books not only sustain systems of magic, but also reference many different fully organized religions (if you include all the ones Sazed maintains).

Not only do you have well-developed religions, you also have so many different characters' responses to religion.  

Vatdoro mentioned that Brandon deliberately creates characters who have beliefs different than his own.  This is true.  However, he still focuses on characters who wrestle with belief, who die for it, who choose faith, who kill their god, who convert, who create their own religion.  His characters revolve around their relationship to religion.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Responding to the original post, I don't see anything more than a weak comparison between Sazed and Joseph Smith.

Both were in search of the true religion, but Sazed looked and eventually found it by reading and talking to people (though even the kandra's religion had been partially corrupted). Joseph Smith read the Bible and talked to people, sure, but the religion he was looking for was not completely lost like the Terris religion was (only known to a small group of people), but widespread in a corrupt form, and he found the truth by asking God rather than other people.

Sazed did not have a divine encounter at all until at the end of the book he effectively and somewhat accidentally became God, or as much of a God as the Mistborn world has—yet not an omniscient God and not one that had any contact with people who have completely passed beyond the veil. There are still a lot of mysteries Sazed does not know. Now, apotheosis has a place in LDS doctrine, but the kind of apotheosis Sazed undergoes is not at all LDS.

There is a parallel in the corrupted written texts and the use of metal plates, but the mechanism is completely different—Ruin is blind to metal and physically alters text on paper; in LDS theology there's nothing special about metal plates aside from their long-lasting nature, and Satan has corrupted scripture only using human agents (plus unintentional copying errors which Satan has not necessarily influenced).

Ruin and the LDS Satan do not have the power to read minds. Ruin influences people with hemalurgic piercings; the only similar way Satan gains power to influence people is if they make choices which make them push away the influence of the Holy Ghost (smoking/drinking is a do-to-your-physical-body thing that's included in this). The parallel is weak; there is no equivalent of the Holy Ghost in the Mistborn world unless you count the extremely limited Mist Spirit.

There's a review of HoA on Amazon that says the book has a lot of parallels with the book of Revelation and Christian ideas about the end of the world. I think a major argument against that is that Satan is not the one who wants to destroy the world. He wants to rule it and turn men to his ways. The Christian God is the one who will ultimately destroy the world and judge mankind. In Mistborn, Ruin doesn't care about people one whit and wants to kill/destroy everyone and everything, and Preservation only wants to preserve, not destroy or judge. I'd say the end of the world in Mistborn is decidedly un-Christian in that aspect. The motivation is quite different.

Ultimately, I would conclude that there are many themes in Brandon's books which his LDS religion has made him open to, but the actual details don't match up at all—Brandon is creating fictional worlds with fictional theological systems that are not LDS in nature. (For example, the foundational ideas of Brandon's universe—the three realms of existence being the Physical, the Cognitive, and the Spiritual, and the mystery behind Adonalsium and his shards—are completely different from LDS theology.)

There is a religious aspect in Hero of Ages that I believe does represent Brandon's true belief system, but it's a generally applicable principle and not a reflection of the spiritual journey of any one individual. That is Sazed's fight with the idea of faith and his eventual determination that you're never going to get hard proof and that you just have to decide to have faith, based on individual miracles that occur in your own life.

[Emmaleem]

Ookla, thanks for responding to my questions.

 I'm not suggesting that a Sazed/Joseph Smith parallel would be anything like Alvin Maker/Joseph Smith (Card's work being a deliberate fantasy take on Joseph Smith's life).  However, there were lines in Hero of Ages, where Sazed kept reviewing the different religions, searching for the one true religion, that struck me as clear echoes of Joseph's story. While it's true that the details of how Sazed and Joseph Smith found truth are quite different, that drive to find a true religion motivates both of them.

And while Sazed accidentally became God, you could easily argue that Joseph accidentally became a prophet.  It's a loose parallel, but still an idea that stayed with me through my whole reading of Hero of Ages.  (although not one that works with any of the other Mistborn books. )

I very much appreciated Sazed's approach to faith, that it is based on one's decision to view miracles as miracles rather than coincidence. 

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Okay, Joseph accidentally became a prophet, fulfilling God's plan through no intention of his own, as Sazed fulfilled Preservation's plan through no intention of his own.

Still, I don't see any specific parallel between Sazed's search for truth and Joseph's search for truth other than that they were both searches for truth, and if you say they're parallel you could say anyone's search for truth parallels Joseph's. Joseph did not have anything like the same crisis of faith as Sazed (as far as we know). He experienced the untimely death of a close family member, but that was three years after the First Vision and he didn't seem to get emotionally wrecked about it. Joseph talked to ministers and was ridiculed; Sazed didn't talk to any ministers and wasn't particularly ridiculed. When Joseph started teaching, he made tons of converts. When Sazed preached his religions to people they generally didn't care; even when he taught them non-religious things they generally didn't find them relevant to their lives.

Ultimately, I think Sazed's search for truth was a more mature search that a lot more people can relate to; Joseph's search was the innocent and straightforward search of a 14-year-old boy who was just confused about what other people were telling him but who didn't really have a crisis of faith in that his mind was never crossed by the idea that God might not exist.

Which specific lines in Hero of Ages struck you as clear echoes of Joseph's story?

[Phaz]

I'll have to admit that I am very blind to all kinds of symbolism in books I read (I typically just enjoy the story) but after a few friends brought up some connections in Mistborn it was hard to miss.

I don't know about the Joseph Smith stuff, but I think it can be wildly agreed upon that Kell is very similar to Jesus.

Not to say he's a 100% copy (I don't think Jesus would kill noblemen), but there are lots of similarities.  There is a religion based upon him and his death (sacrifice) and his later resurrection (In the form of OrSeur).  He's in his 30s, and has a mysterious life that we don't know much about before that.  He was killed by a spear which became a symbolic part of the religion based around him.  He operated with a close group of friends who greatly looked up to him and later preached his worldview, etc.  I know I'm leaving lots of parallels out, but I can get more from a friend of mine who first made me aware of the connection (She probably has a list 4x this size).

I don't know much about Mormonism, but I was told that the scene in the third book where Preservation "dies" and leaves behind a body is very symbolic when taken in that religious context.  Is that true?

[Emmaleem]

I see Kelsier as a Christ figure, for sure.

I think it's possible for a character to have some resonant symbolism without mirroring the person/idea symbolized in every aspect.  So Kelsier has some Christian resonance; that adds depth to the readers who pick up on in and enjoy it.

In the same way, I would call Sazed a Joseph Smith figure--there are many many ways he does not mirror Joseph Smith at all.  But the basic arc has a parallel, and I suspect it will resonate for some LDS readers.

"Now, he wanted to know... no, he had to know.. if the religions of the world had answers for him. He would find the truth, or he would eliminate each and every faith." --Hero of Ages, page 43

 

9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
  10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it?--Joseph Smith History 1:9-10

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Emmaleem, any other lines? That one line doesn't add any special significance to Sazed's search for a religion than does any other person's search for which church is true.

And I think it's too easy to say Kelsier is a Christ figure. He purposely set out to make himself into a martyr. But it was just another tool in his scheme and had no actual religious significance. I mean, if you say Kelsier is a Christ figure, my reaction is, well, duh. That's exactly what Kelsier wanted to be. There's no hidden significance or symbolism Brandon was putting in there; it's pretty overt and right there on the surface. (And the thing about the spear is largely coincidence; it's more of a parallel to the cross than to the actual spear of Longinus. Also, Kelsier's early life was not at all mysterious, except for the part after he snapped and returned to Luthadel having found the 11th metal—and we'll find out what happened in the short story that will accompany the Mistborn RPG.)

He operated with a close group of friends who ... later preached his worldview

But they didn't. In fact, they were against one of Kelsier's central "doctrines."

Kelsier's crew aren't based on the Apostles. They're based on just what Brandon said they were: Ocean's 11, the Italian Job, etc.

I don't know much about Mormonism, but I was told that the scene in the third book where Preservation "dies" and leaves behind a body is very symbolic when taken in that religious context.  Is that true?

I don't see anything particularly Mormon about this. I mean, Jesus died and his body was in the tomb for portions of three days, but he took it up again. Also, Ruin left a body behind too. However, the LDS Satan does not have a physical body; he and his "angels" lost the opportunity to come to earth and get physical bodies when they rebelled against God before the creation of the world.

The bodies-left-behind thing is just a clue about how the cosmology of Brandon's Shards of Adonalsium universe works.

[little wilson]

Emmaleem---Like Ookla already said, using that idea of finding the truth, pretty much anyone who's ever had any sort of question about religions can mirror Sazed and Joseph Smith's search for truth. Those two are no more alike than anyone else searching for truth, but if you want to say there's a parallel between them, go right ahead.

I think that search will resonate with an LDS reader, not because of Joseph Smith, but because LDS members have done what Sazed does. The church promotes members getting their own personal testimony about the truth of the church. That requires questions similar to those that Sazed asked in each of his times discrediting religions....