A Memory of Light

[Patriotic Kaz]

The last books are missing something lately...oh i know a mano e mano show down with Rand and a Forsaken... who does he off next?

[SarahG]

The last books are missing something lately...oh i know a mano e mano show down with Rand and a Forsaken... who does he off next?

Doesn't matter, they'll just get resurrected. 

[Eerongal]

all this talk of forsaken getting ressurected repeatedly makes me think of rand standing in front of a revolving door as the forsaken walk out one by one and die over and over and over again

[darxbane]

Cynewulf,
Your last comment was extremely well-put.  I really like your hypothesis about the DO being shut out, although in a way it is still a prison, only he is trapped outside of reality instead of within it.  Or, he is surrounded by Creation, and has his little void all to himself with no way to get out.  Either way, it makes sense.  I don't think the Creator is without care, It is just unable to help directly.  If the Creator is the Antithesis of the Dark One, then the Creator would be unable to directly influence Sentient beings.  It would have to allow them to choose.  It could give them all the powers and opportunities to do the right thing, but can't force them to do the right thing.  If the Creator really didn't care, It wouldn't have a champion, nor would it grant such amazing powers that assist in fighting evil.  Unfortunately, free will allows for those powers to also be used for evil. 

[Reaves]

Cynewulf,
Your last comment was extremely well-put.  I really like your hypothesis about the DO being shut out, although in a way it is still a prison, only he is trapped outside of reality instead of within it.  Or, he is surrounded by Creation, and has his little void all to himself with no way to get out.  Either way, it makes sense.  I don't think the Creator is without care, It is just unable to help directly.  If the Creator is the Antithesis of the Dark One, then the Creator would be unable to directly influence Sentient beings.  It would have to allow them to choose.  It could give them all the powers and opportunities to do the right thing, but can't force them to do the right thing.  If the Creator really didn't care, It wouldn't have a champion, nor would it grant such amazing powers that assist in fighting evil.  Unfortunately, free will allows for those powers to also be used for evil. 

I also liked your thoughts Cynewulf. Very interesting ideas and they are obviously very logically plotted. I do think, however, there will be some type of "Dark One avatar" if only for the sake of it being after all a story I think RJ would see too much potential in having the Creator's champion facing off against the embodiment of darkness to not put it in somehow. I like your thoughts of the Dark One imprinting part of his essence on Shaidar Haran.

[melbatoast]

What about that one time from Shaidar Haran's pov where he says he gets achy if he's gone from Shayol Ghul for too long, but someday he will figure out how to change that? Maybe he is partly imprinted but apprently Shaidar Haran is still partially an individual.

[happyman]

What about that one time from Shaidar Haran's pov where he says he gets achy if he's gone from Shayol Ghul for too long, but someday he will figure out how to change that? Maybe he is partly imprinted but apprently Shaidar Haran is still partially an individual.

Well, the DO is an "individual" (for sufficiently broad definition of individual) and seems to have certain limitations (on his knowledge, for instance), even if he is the opposite of the creator.  There is no reason why Shadar Haran can't be basically "The DO distilled as best as possible into a somewhat mortal body."  He would then be frustrated with his inability to leave Shayol Ghul for too long, not because he wants to escape, but because he would be much more effective if he could move around rather than being effectively chained in place.  It doesn't seem to me like it's a desire to escape so much as a desire to spread mayhem.

[melbatoast]

Hmmm...I never considered it that way. I'll have to find the quote. I am not sure which way it should be interpreted.

ETA:

Okay, here's the quote. "A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come."

Now that I read it again I think you're correct. He certainly doesn't act like he wants to break free at any other time. I don't know what I was thinking.

[Eerongal]

So all this talk about the DO breaking free made me think:

DO's theme song: Queen - I want to break free

[Renoard]

I took the poll at the begining of this thread and I voted "only one or two"  I'd like to protest that the answer I wanted to give was not in the poll, however.  I think it will be a significant number of characters that have to be killed off.  I do not think that if Mr. Rigney had finished the rewrites and edits himself that Rand would be one of them.

1) The prophecies in the series have all been just a bit more obscure than the characters accounted for and it would be too pat for the blood on the rocks passage to lead to Rand's death.

2) James Rigney is one of the most amazing thieves I've ever read.  Now I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean he borrowed thematic elements, plot-lines and characters from every major work of Romance and Speculative fiction in the English language and I think a couple from Spanish besides.  But he manages to not only make them fresh and uniquely his but to integrate them perfectly. That said book #11 had started linking Rand to Barak Halfhand and Thomas Covenant from [Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever[/i]. That leads me to believe that he would eventually have lead Rand to survive but in a diminished persona minus Lews Therrin and without the Global Empire to manage. That will fall to Matt.

3) The operatic death-of-all-heroes-and-villians-good-triumphs-but-the-only-the-sidekicks-and-lackeys-are-left-to-mourn is so hackneyed I just can't see such an independent thinker being able to bring himself to write it.  Not to mention the fact he'd want to avoid connecting his own passing with that of his character and the obvious parallels some wild-eyed fans would draw.

Again just a thought, but I'm open to debate.

[Shaggy]

About the 'blood on the rocks' prophecy…I really think RJ wanted everyone to assume this to mean that Rand will die in the end (as many of us did). I also think he wanted us to think that so he could trick us, and  have Rand not die.

I just realized this completely conflicts with what I said earlier and my thoughts that Rand will die along with the bad guys.  Whatever. It's been a month.

[Shard]

I took the poll at the begining of this thread and I voted "only one or two"  I'd like to protest that the answer I wanted to give was not in the poll, however.  I think it will be a significant number of characters that have to be killed off.  I do not think that if Mr. Rigney had finished the rewrites and edits himself that Rand would be one of them.

1) The prophecies in the series have all been just a bit more obscure than the characters accounted for and it would be too pat for the blood on the rocks passage to lead to Rand's death.

2) James Rigney is one of the most amazing thieves I've ever read.  Now I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean he borrowed thematic elements, plot-lines and characters from every major work of Romance and Speculative fiction in the English language and I think a couple from Spanish besides.  But he manages to not only make them fresh and uniquely his but to integrate them perfectly. That said book #11 had started linking Rand to Barak Halfhand and Thomas Covenant from [Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever[/i]. That leads me to believe that he would eventually have lead Rand to survive but in a diminished persona minus Lews Therrin and without the Global Empire to manage. That will fall to Matt.

I always imagined him more linked to Jesus Christ or King Arthur with the whole wound in the side and Kingfisher. That is the beauty of this writing is it's connected through many real world historical things.  I wouldn't mind Rand surviving though he has gone through alot .

3) The operatic death-of-all-heroes-and-villians-good-triumphs-but-the-only-the-sidekicks-and-lackeys-are-left-to-mourn is so hackneyed I just can't see such an independent thinker being able to bring himself to write it.  Not to mention the fact he'd want to avoid connecting his own passing with that of his character and the obvious parallels some wild-eyed fans would draw.

Again just a thought, but I'm open to debate.

Sounds like you wouldn't have liked Braveheart huh? Well I don't know who else besides Mat and Toun who are surviving but I think we will loose "good guys".

[Shaggy]

Definitely. If I was writing it, I'd kill off lots of good guys.

[Renoard]

Thing is, in Braveheart the good guys lost the whole war. It's a historical piece based on a history where, wait for it, the bad guys won the war.   This is fiction where the good guys win.  If you want realism, generals don't die in war, that's what field officers and troops are for.

I said STARTING to move toward Thom Covenant.  The whole incurable disease, and halfhand, insane Mesiah etc.

Jesus didn't have a wound that would not heal.  The wound in his side happened during his last battle.

[Shard]

That is true about Braveheart being a historical piece that didn't quite get everything right.

I was sorta combining Jesus and Arthur there since Arthur wasn't a messiah so Thom would be a better fit. It just in the past I have seen people say that Rand was a rip off of Thom Covenant or Paul Atriedes. I just feel at this point that the Classic Hero is so ingrained in our psyche he's going to look familiar now in ever story. Rand is even Luke like now with the missing hand.