A Memory of Light

[Patriotic Kaz]

Thanks for quoting me!!!! I feel oh so very special...Anyways the Alivia makes sense the rest, put bluntly and possibly offensively (sorry about this in advance), was somewhat obivous or so highly unlikey it borders riduculous... though the insight on Alivia could be it.

Cyndane/Lanfear and Moghidein have no reason to send such an attack and Morridin has no reason to order them to do so as it was all pinned on Sammeal... and for all we know Sammeal has been reborn and is using an illusion to appear as his old self (possibility is less than a white couple having asian twins but hey its there).

[happyman]

Thanks for quoting me!!!! I feel oh so very special...Anyways the Alivia makes sense the rest, put bluntly and possibly offensively (sorry about this in advance), was somewhat obivous or so highly unlikey it borders riduculous... though the insight on Alivia could be it.

Cyndane/Lanfear and Moghidein have no reason to send such an attack and Morridin has no reason to order them to do so as it was all pinned on Sammeal... and for all we know Sammeal has been reborn and is using an illusion to appear as his old self (possibility is less than a white couple having asian twins but hey its there).

Yeah, but no.  If Sammael had been reborn, he would now be a little child with no convictions and no idea who he was.  And he would stay that way his whole life.  Rand seems to be an exception.

You really don't seem to understand just how nasty a game of chess the forsaken are playing with each other, with the dark one, with the world.

[Patriotic Kaz]

I meant reborn like how ishmael is now morridin...

[Shaggy]

I haven't read WoT in a while; can someone do me a big favor and remind me how we know that Moridin is Ishmael like, reincarnated? Thanks.…

[Shard]

I think the Glossary eventually just said that he was and then eluded to Cyndane being another like the 'Gars and Moridin. There are hints and such as Moridin refers to things like Ishy and also is the only one to use the True Source, evidence by the Saa (black flecks in his eyes).

[Shaggy]

Oh, OK…thanks. And he's just as scary as Ishy was. 

[Eerongal]

Oh, OK…thanks. And he's just as scary as Ishy was. 

actually, i personally think he's more mad and fiendishly diabolic than ishy ever was.

[Shaggy]

Well we never had much contact with Ishy…did we?  (I honestly can't remember.)

[happyman]

Well we never had much contact with Ishy…did we?  (I honestly can't remember.)

Our primary contact with Ishy was via the temptation scenes for the three main characters (dreams, etc.).  In these he lied quite freely.  The whole thing was, as it were, a show.  This differs radically from the casual view we get from the Forsaken's standpoint as they meet.

Thus any proclaimed differences between their personalities can be explained quite easily.  The wide pattern of matching similarities and identifying features, on the other hand, is quite striking.  I, personally, am completely and utterly convinced they are one and the same.

[darxbane]

As you should be.  However, Sammael being reborn is unlikely.  He either survived Mashadar or he is dead, and since Mashadar is the essence of that opposing evil force that counteracts the taint on Saidin, then I would sumise that he is beyond the Dark One's reach, simlar to being balefired.  I only make this leap because RJ couldn't have kept on bringing Forsaken back to life.

[SarahG]

I only make this leap because RJ couldn't have kept on bringing Forsaken back to life.

It's always kind of made me mad that he brought any of them back to life at all.  It seems to me that 13 uber-bad-guys should be enough of a challenge for Rand to conquer as a prelude to his showdown with the Dark One; when it turns out he has to kill some of them multiple times it just gets annoying.  Plus I don't like keeping track of all those evil people who keep popping back up and changing genders after I think they're safely eliminated.  But that's just me.

[Shard]

The concept in WoT is that people live and die and are reborn. I believe there was a loop hole that the DO took advantage of, since the Forsaken were still in their 2nd age bodies, they were allowed a re-birth into a 3rd age body. Thus Moridin, the Gar's and Cyndane were born. I think this is a one time offer and should they perish again that's it until the next age.

[Cynewulf]

It has nothing to do with ages and "loop holes" in the sense you refer to. Your assumption seems to be that each soul can live once per age. We have no evidence that such a thing is the case.

RJ has described the process involved. After someone dies, the Dark One has a small window of opportunity to seize the soul. This is presumably a result of his increased ability to influence reality. The soul is then transmigrated into a body which has had its soul removed at some prior stage. Theoretically, the Dark One could repeat this process for as long as he wants, provided that he actually wants to and manages to capture the soul.

[Shaggy]

So could the DO do that to himself, you think?

[Cynewulf]

I really do not think so. All textual evidence, as well as very clear statements by RJ, suggest that the Dark One is an entity which stands in complete antithesis to the Creator. He is a cosmic force, not a man. He is an entity very much reminiscent of the Manichean mythology, and if mythologies should be compared, he is really quite a lot more powerful than the Biblical Satan, as he seems to be the Creator's equal in all respects. Since he is not a man, or even part of the reality of the books, I highly doubt he has a soul to transmute. RJ said that Shai'tan is a force which is not human in any way. There is no reason to think that he has a body, or a soul. Note that in Shaidar Haran he could be said to have imprinted part of his essence on someone existing in reality. He  also did something similar to Padan Fain at a very early stage. That being said, I think the Dark One's essence is to huge to be carried by a human, trolloc or myrddraal host, and nor do I think he would be able to move his essence into reality before the seals break. After they break, why should he bother with putting himself inside a human, in the highly unlikely case that it actually could be done? All in all, with Shaidar Haran he has succeeded in creating an agent directly controlled by himself inside the reality created by the Creator. When the seals finally break, he will widen the Bore to the point that he can finally break into reality completely. When that happens, he will be omnipotent, and able to do whatever he likes with it.

As a side note, given the mythological underpinnings of the work, and textual evidence, I believe it is self-evident that the Dark One is not, and has never been, imprisoned. I think he has been shut out. When the creator made reality - all the connected universes and dimensions, all the physical and non-physical worlds in the world of the books - he effectively made sure his dark antithesis would be unable to affect it, as he would surely attempt to destroy it. When the Bore was drilled, Shai'tan was allowed a way into reality. He is not trying to get out of  a prison in order to be free, he is trying to gain access to (one of) the realit(ies) the Creator has made in order to destroy it. Ishamael is the only person who has really understood this, as indicated by the works he wrote in the AoL, and supported by the fact that he "called for the destruction of everything" when he revealed himself as Forsaken. This also explains the Creator's apparent lack of concern over the fact that the Dark One is breaking into reality. The Dark One is no threat to him, only to what he has made.