Poll

Do you think that many of the major characters will be killed in "A Memory of Light?"

All of them (Rand included)
4 (6.8%)
Only one or two
27 (45.8%)
Only (all of) the bad guys
6 (10.2%)
They'll all survive (not really possible)
1 (1.7%)
Only Rand and the bad guys
21 (35.6%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: A Memory of Light  (Read 89139 times)

Eerongal

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Fell Points: 0
  • That jaunty jackanapes with moxie and pizzazz
    • View Profile
    • Rockin' with the Erock
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #240 on: January 28, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »
Oh I get it…just out of curiosity, though–why are they called 'red herrings?'

Supposedly, the origin of the term comes from the 1800's, when fugitives from the law would rub a herring around areas they ran, because herring gets a very pungent smell, to throw off the hounds.

That's what i've heard anyway, dont know if it's true.
[shameless plug]
My site
[/shameless plug]

Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-R. Howard

Pie is clearly the most trustworthy. Pie for president. - Me.

Shaggy

  • Level 32
  • *
  • Posts: 1886
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I advise you not to argue. We have chipmunks.
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #241 on: January 28, 2009, 03:48:09 PM »
That's pretty cool that such an old term is still used today.…
But would they kill the herring first??
The Shag Dog Has Spoken

SniperCatBeliever

Bringer of Flames, Leader of Destruction, Head Chipmunk.

High Chipolata of C.F.N (Chipmunks For Nuts)

"You sound like a commercial."

{Pie-Lover Poster Boy}

OOP Member.

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #242 on: January 28, 2009, 10:12:35 PM »
Seeing as a Herring is a fish, and can't breathe out of water, it is safe to assume the it didn't survive.
Anyway, I would love to see Tuon's reaction to Hawkwing, as well as all the other assumptions she stands by.  She doesn't believe in T'averen, or really understand what the Power can really do.  I also want someone to make her see what a fool she is.  She thinks because she doesn't actually channel herself she is absolved of the sin of being a Channeler.  If she controls the channeler, it is no different than doing it herself.  I wonder if Rand will be the one to break the Seanchan like he broke the Aiel.  Imagine what would happen if they find out that Ishamael was Hawkwing's advisor, and caused his mistrust of Aes Sedai, as well as his sending Luthair away.  Heck, I would love to see the look on Tuon's face when she learns that her Voice "Anath" was actually Semirhage!
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Shaggy

  • Level 32
  • *
  • Posts: 1886
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I advise you not to argue. We have chipmunks.
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #243 on: January 28, 2009, 10:15:59 PM »
 :-[Hehe right.… *smacks himself in the face*

A different way of living doesn't make a person a fool. I'm Jewish. Should I think all Christians are fools? Of course not.
The Shag Dog Has Spoken

SniperCatBeliever

Bringer of Flames, Leader of Destruction, Head Chipmunk.

High Chipolata of C.F.N (Chipmunks For Nuts)

"You sound like a commercial."

{Pie-Lover Poster Boy}

OOP Member.

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #244 on: January 29, 2009, 12:06:44 AM »
If my different way of living involves systematic torture on weekdays, I'd hope you'd look at me a little funny.

As for Tuon...well. Her way of living is WRONG. She is enslaving human beings. Case closed. I really hope we don't have to continue this discussion.
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Bookstore Guy

  • Level 21
  • *
  • Posts: 1089
  • Fell Points: 2
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #245 on: January 29, 2009, 12:11:05 AM »
i think the most interesting part about the Tuon character will be the realization that some of the things her culture believes might not be "Blessed by the Creator." If it turns out to be a much more extreme version of what happened with Egeanin (spelling if awful) and Nyneve/Elayne, then it could be a very powerful character moment.
Check out our blog, Elitist Book Reviews at:
http://elitistbookreviews.blogspot.com/

mtlhddoc2

  • Level 9
  • *
  • Posts: 340
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #246 on: January 29, 2009, 01:23:14 AM »
Oh I get it…just out of curiosity, though–why are they called 'red herrings?'

Supposedly, the origin of the term comes from the 1800's, when fugitives from the law would rub a herring around areas they ran, because herring gets a very pungent smell, to throw off the hounds.

That's what i've heard anyway, dont know if it's true.

That's one of the supposed original meaning, another is that they used herrings in the training of foxhounds to decipher fainter scents when presented with much stronger ones.

Shaggy

  • Level 32
  • *
  • Posts: 1886
  • Fell Points: 0
  • I advise you not to argue. We have chipmunks.
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #247 on: January 29, 2009, 01:33:21 AM »
I was kind of just making a slightly off-topic generic statement…I guess it didn't come out that way.
The Shag Dog Has Spoken

SniperCatBeliever

Bringer of Flames, Leader of Destruction, Head Chipmunk.

High Chipolata of C.F.N (Chipmunks For Nuts)

"You sound like a commercial."

{Pie-Lover Poster Boy}

OOP Member.

melbatoast

  • Level 6
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
    • My Shelfari Page
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #248 on: January 29, 2009, 04:11:41 AM »
I'm very interested to see what will happen with Tuon in the next book. I'm sure she's going to get her eyes opened to what the rest of the world is like outside of Seanchan. And figure out her husband. The Matt/Tuon scenes are some of my favorites. It's so interesting to see them clash because they see everything so differently. Maybe we'll even get to see more someday! (crosses fingers)
"She is too fond of books, and it has addled her brain." - Louisa May Alcott

mtlhddoc2

  • Level 9
  • *
  • Posts: 340
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #249 on: January 29, 2009, 05:29:34 AM »
If my different way of living involves systematic torture on weekdays, I'd hope you'd look at me a little funny.

As for Tuon...well. Her way of living is WRONG. She is enslaving human beings. Case closed. I really hope we don't have to continue this discussion.

Torture of who?

Her way of living is wrong to you, but not to her. Just like I am sure my way of living is wrong to you as well, but not to me. There are alot of things in this world that people hold as gospel, that I think are just plain wrong, but they chose to live that way, and the slight majority backs them. And really, that is the difference between "right" and "wrong" - the people in charge are right, the people not in charge are wrong.

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #250 on: January 29, 2009, 02:48:02 PM »
The torture thing was a different, unrelated example. However, still firmly in the WOT universe the Seanchan have tortured Aes Sedai prisoners, such as Egwene when they made her feel like she was being boiled alive. I don't know/remember if it is stated that Tuon has done such. I personally think that was before RJ had truly decided what the Seanchan were like, but hey.

In real life: I believe there is a difference between right and wrong that is unaffected by what the majority believes. Often it is hard to tell which is which. Often people disagree fervently on which is which. However, it is out there.
As for your particular lifestyle...I'm not going to play games with you. I think it is wrong. However, you and I are exactly the same.
I know you probably don't believe in sin, and God. However, until I gave my life to Him I was counted exactly like you. I know of far more "sins" present in myself and my own heart than I do about you  :P So please, please don't feel like I am condemning you or being self-righteous. That's the opposite of what Christianity is about. Its about realizing you don't have any righteousness in yourself.

Okay, sorry for the off-topic :P
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Comfortable Madness

  • Level 9
  • *
  • Posts: 339
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #251 on: January 29, 2009, 03:13:17 PM »
If my different way of living involves systematic torture on weekdays, I'd hope you'd look at me a little funny.

As for Tuon...well. Her way of living is WRONG. She is enslaving human beings. Case closed. I really hope we don't have to continue this discussion.

Torture of who?

Her way of living is wrong to you, but not to her. Just like I am sure my way of living is wrong to you as well, but not to me. There are alot of things in this world that people hold as gospel, that I think are just plain wrong, but they chose to live that way, and the slight majority backs them. And really, that is the difference between "right" and "wrong" - the people in charge are right, the people not in charge are wrong.

I'm going to have to outright disagree. Might makes right??? Not a chance...well not as I see things anyways. Those in/with power may tell you one thing is right and another is wrong but that doesn't make it so. They may even punish you for not adhering to what they deem "right" but what is truly right is untouchable by any manmade laws. I believe everyone deep down knows what's right and what's wrong. Some, due in part to those in power, have a jaded view of what is right.  A couple of my friends and I argued about this very same topic for well....well it still gets brought up. I honestly believe in an objective right. I once tried to see every right or wrong from a relative standpoint and I really just couldn't. Just because what is truly right is hard to find/understand and gets overlooked in favor of the "easy way" doesn't mean it isn't there.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

Bookstore Guy

  • Level 21
  • *
  • Posts: 1089
  • Fell Points: 2
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #252 on: January 29, 2009, 05:59:51 PM »
i agree with Madness.

by the "those in charge are right" argument, the holocaust during WWII was totally cool. so are the genocides that have happened in Africa, Indonesia, etc. You could argue the the guy who rapes a girl is "in charge," so he is right for doing it. No, i dont think i can roll with those thoughts.

now, Tuon doesn't think she is wrong at all. that has to do with her culture. within her culture she isn't wrong. but that doesnt mean is isnt wrong in general, and it doesnt mean she is right in general. the torturing of people so they behave as a good dog should is viewed as wrong by the main protagonists in WoT. thats just how the story is written.

what is important in the story is not whether she is right or wrong, but how her views cause tension, and should her views change, what effects that will have on her and the story.  thats just storytelling.  tension = better stories.
Check out our blog, Elitist Book Reviews at:
http://elitistbookreviews.blogspot.com/

Eerongal

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Fell Points: 0
  • That jaunty jackanapes with moxie and pizzazz
    • View Profile
    • Rockin' with the Erock
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #253 on: January 29, 2009, 07:01:25 PM »
The argument about this being right is the basic argument about Lawful vs. Morality. Because it's a law,does it make it right? Or does morality dictate what's right? If so, then whose Morality? Should Laws be based on Morality, or Order? Everyones views on this will differ based on how lawful or how moral one is.

Also, let's not forget *WHY* tuon (and the seanchan) think the way they do. In their past, Channelers cause many deaths and wars, so in an effort to control them, they were bound to slavery. As a society, they have accepted this as a necessary evil to prevent harm to the innocent. In fact, their society has accepted it to the point where it's almost considered an honor of sorts to be forced into a certain lifestyle (slave or master) and people who she the correct signs accept it with humility. Naturally, OTHER societies are appalled by it, it's kind of like how some eastern countries would find us monsters for eating beef.

So lets look at it from the perspective in ancient times. There's a group of people. A vast majority (let's say 80-90%) of them are blood thirsty and murderous, and harm your innocent citizens. These people are also superior to you in a way that you CANNOT fight them back, no matter what you do, and they know it. As such, they have no reason at all to bargain with you. However, you have a certain tool that will allow you to bind them to slavery, and keep them in check. Doing so, you keep this group of people from harming the innocent, but requires you to bind all of them in order to be sure of the safety. Even one of these people on a rampage could kill hundreds or thousands. Would you choose to bind them to slavery, or allow the innocent to suffer by their hands?
[shameless plug]
My site
[/shameless plug]

Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-R. Howard

Pie is clearly the most trustworthy. Pie for president. - Me.

Bookstore Guy

  • Level 21
  • *
  • Posts: 1089
  • Fell Points: 2
    • View Profile
Re: A Memory of Light
« Reply #254 on: January 29, 2009, 07:20:08 PM »
what you see with Tuon and the Seanchan is one possible reaction to those who channel. thats the actual interesting think about it. yes, the seanchan chose to enslave a portion of the population to deal with it, but that is THEIR response. the main continent has several societies that deal with it differently from Aes Sedai to Aiel to the Kin. It's as if we get to see the different "what ifs".  Now, people growing up in the seanchan culture may say they feel honored to be chosen and sul'dam or d'amani (or however they are spelled - im in audio-book land right now), but does that mean Egwene should feel honored because she was leashed and tortured? In history, those chosen for human sacrifice were told it was an honor. I personally dont feel right saying "yup, it was an honor." but we can argue opinions all day to no good or purposeful result - i suggest we dont.

as to your dilemma question, who can say? you can argue both ways. things are never as simple as the paragraph you wrote - there are always hundreds of other things to consider. I personally dont want to debate it, because it wont lend enough good stuff to the thread without hurting it more. there is no good answer or solution to your proposed situation. it makes for a good story idea due to all the tension, but it would sicken me to see either side of it in real life.

Steven Erikson was once asked a question about how bleak he portrayed life in his novels. He responded by saying that no matter how bleak he paints things, it can never possibly compare with witnessing it in a real-life situation. Stories can make easy answers, but life is never that easy. (that was another example of my endless pimping of Steven Erikson's work. Go get him now!)
Check out our blog, Elitist Book Reviews at:
http://elitistbookreviews.blogspot.com/