A Memory of Light

[Eerongal]

what you see with Tuon and the Seanchan is one possible reaction to those who channel. thats the actual interesting think about it. yes, the seanchan chose to enslave a portion of the population to deal with it, but that is THEIR response. the main continent has several societies that deal with it differently from Aes Sedai to Aiel to the Kin. It's as if we get to see the different "what ifs".  Now, people growing up in the seanchan culture may say they feel honored to be chosen and sul'dam or d'amani (or however they are spelled - im in audio-book land right now), but does that mean Egwene should feel honored because she was leashed and tortured? In history, those chosen for human sacrifice were told it was an honor. I personally dont feel right saying "yup, it was an honor." but we can argue opinions all day to no good or purposeful result - i suggest we dont.

as to your dilemma question, who can say? you can argue both ways. things are never as simple as the paragraph you wrote - there are always hundreds of other things to consider. I personally dont want to debate it, because it wont lend enough good stuff to the thread without hurting it more. there is no good answer or solution to your proposed situation. it makes for a good story idea due to all the tension, but it would sicken me to see either side of it in real life.

Steven Erikson was once asked a question about how bleak he portrayed life in his novels. He responded by saying that no matter how bleak he paints things, it can never possibly compare with witnessing it in a real-life situation. Stories can make easy answers, but life is never that easy. (that was another example of my endless pimping of Steven Erikson's work. Go get him now!)

I didnt mean that paragraph to be something to be debated, nor for it to be something everyone else has to answer. What I was trying to do is illustrate WHY the seanchan believe as they do, and they aren't just going "LOL! SLAVERY!" They're doing what they do for, as they believe, the greater good. Is it the greater good? Who's to say. It's a 'Your mileage may vary' sort of deal.

Naturally, I don't think Egwene should feel honored at all. Which she obviously doesnt. She hasn't shared the views and experiences their society has. As i said before, the seanchan view it as a necessary evil, so it's a good thing to them. And, as almost any society will do, they believe they're right, everyone else's opinions be damned. (they also believe that the entire continent they're coming back to belongs to them, but that's another story)

I understand what you're trying to say, im just not trying to simplify it in my above statements or say "this is how it is, so it's ok". I'm just trying to point out the angle i feel was ignored.

Also, i may have to check out Steven Erikson some day.

also also: Boy this topic has strayed, hasn't it?

[Bookstore Guy]

it hasnt strayed much at all, because we got right back to the point and are giving examples from the book. these are huge things to look towards in AMoL. I think you sound just as interested in the possible radical character shifts just like i do. after so many books, that's what interests me more than "hows it gonna end."

Erikson is awesome, you just have to be willing to put up with a REALLY high learning curve. But i love that I actually have to think when reading his stories. And he handles this very question we discuss in every novel. Who is right? is ANYBODY right? from your comments, i think you might dig it.

Oh, and totally see what you are saying, and i think you HAVE to look at that angle to understand the characters. otherwise everyone is the same, and thats boring.

/highfive

[Eerongal]

yeah, I'm a big fan of stories with deep characters who all have differing/skewed views on morality. What I don't care as much for (which you honestly see a lot in modern day literature) is when the writer puts everything from his/her morality views and judgements. When you do you get groups like "here's the good guys. They're saints, and always agree and do good!" and "these are the bad guys. They're evil beyond saving" and everyone else either supports the heros (they're the good guys afterall) or disagree/hate them because they don't fully understand the whole.

On topic, I am very honestly interested to see everyone's reaction when they learn the information and things they haven't known up until now, like the example of Tuon and the true nature of channeling, and all those sort of things.

[Shaggy]

Someone above said that they believe that all people know what is right and wrong inside of them. My contradictory point on this matter is that if that is true, then you are saying that somewhere inside, Hitler, Stalin, Muscellini (spelling is bad, I know) and every other dictator, sadist and murderer knew what they were doing was wrong. I honestly think they believed what they were doing was right, possibly even for the betterment (word?) or the world. Then again, many of them were in a rather unstable state of mind, so.…

[mtlhddoc2]

Could you list a few of Erikson's works? Such as, which one I should start with. I need new reading material.

On the off-topic topic: I am glad to have stimulated such deep conversation. Obviously, might makes right is simplistic and sometimes abhorrent. But, as one person pointed out, I am an athiest, yet I am forced to use money which has "In God We Trust" printed on it. The pledge of Allegiance for the country I love says "One Nation Under God". Those are just some small examples. Religion is forced on me from all sides, yet, the majority in this country are Christian, so I am considered "wrong". And you know what? It REALLY doesnt bother me all that much because it means nothing to me. However, look at it this way. If the Roman gods were still prevalent and Christianity the minority and all of our money said "In Jupiter We Trust", wouldnt you feel a bit slighted?

there is right and there is wrong, and then there is a supertanker full of gray areas. Might makes right is the key to the gray areas....  but then again, in some countries, even the "right and wrong" are gray, even though they are not gray to us. There are hundreds, if not thousands of people willing to blow themselves up to kill innocent people who think they are right too. There are dozens of entire countries who brutalize women in the name of religion because their religion says so. Slavery is the norm in alot of these countries, they just call it by a prettier name: "Marriage". So, this brings us full circle. Might does in fact make "right". and that is why many people feel ok, even justified, in saying that I am "wrong", even though I live by a moral code that is similar, if not the same, as alot of others.

On topic: will RJ/BS have Tuon feel regret for the centuries of slavery? I sure hope not, but he might.

[Shaggy]

On topic: will RJ/BS have Tuon feel regret for the centuries of slavery? I sure hope not, but he might.

I highly doubt that this will happen (I hope it does not turn out so, as well). If this happens, then it is a likely indication that all those with different points of views, opinions and differences shall evolved to become what we consider "right." Then everyone will be like robots, and the story will be ruined. Unless it's just Tuon who changes. Which I doubt.

[Reaves]

I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.

[Shaggy]

Just because there 'isn't anything gray in the examples [he has] given us' doesn't mean they don't exist. They just haven't been posted. In this thread. Yet.

[Reaves]

Quite true. I absolutely concede that point. It is hard, sometimes very hard, to find out what is actually right and wrong. There are some things for which "right" and "wrong" just don't apply; pizza toppings and pink unicorns, for one.   

[Shaggy]

 :DMost definitely. Although I'm sure my little cousin would argue that liking brocoli on pizza could be seen as "wrong"…well if I had a little cousin. Actually, I think i DO have a little cousin. I'll have to check.

[Cynewulf]

I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.

In that context, it is important to point out that most believers, whether Hindu or Muslim tend to refer to their god as "God". In that sense, it seems largely to be irrelevant to the believer - or "practitioners" more accurately, given that most of the religious world does not follow the Abrahamic tradition of accentuating the importance of "faith" - whether their gods are named YHWH, Siva or Jupiter.  The ancient Greeks and Romans followed this practise, as well.

[mtlhddoc2]

I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.

I agree with you on the first part. Of course it is wrong...  to those of us who have evolved. Go back barely over 60 years in this country and women were little more than property still. It was teh 2nd World War which changed teh male view when women worked in factories and such. the phrase "rule of thumb" comes from a British law which was only recently stricken from the books that you could not beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb. Right and wrong ARE subjective, even when there are certain truths which we hold self-evident. Such as murder, rape, slavery and the brutalizing of women, and even: forcing religion on someone, yet, that takes place every day in this country. Just the fact that it is God and not god is proof that it is indeed the Judeo-Christian god, or an offshoot (such as Islam) which is being referenced. the Greek and roman gods where referred to in the lower case, since each person worshipped a god of their choosing. The Hindi people also have multiple gods and therefore "god" would also be lower case. I am not here to belabor the point. It really is fact. If you are not a believer in god or God, you are considered less of a person in this country by most. People come right out and say, if you dont believe, then you have no morals, which is patently false. But that is what they believe, and they are in power, therefore they are "right" and I am "wrong" regardless of how I might feel about teh subject. Many of the Mormons on this board should be able to sympathize with me, if they could get past their prejudice. Mormonism has been considered a "cult" and "weird" by the majority for a long long time. Utah would not even be a state if Mormon church leaders had not been forced to give up polygamy. so to the majority, Mormons are no different than I am, even if they refuse to believe it.

PS: I like broccoli on pizza, a white pizza that is.

[Cynewulf]

The Hindi people also have multiple gods and therefore "god" would also be lower case.

This is actually false. Although the Hindu pantheon is expansive, most people pay service to only one. In written works such as the Bhagavadgita, the gods are regularly referred to as "God", or even "Lord". The same is the case in academic works on the Indian religions. However, this distinction pertains only to written texts. For most Hindus the textual dimension is foreign and irrelevant to their religious practises, as the Indian religions have been almost entirely focussed on the oral aspects of their religion, and on the practise of rote memorisation.The distinction between higher and lower cases just do not come into the equation in a meaningful way.

EDIT: Other than that, I mostly agree.

[mtlhddoc2]

Point conceded. I have not extensively studied Hindusim as I have Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

[Shaggy]

Mtlhddoc2, there is a most profound difference between broccoli on white pizza and broccoli on regular pizza. I feel disrespected when you ignore my feelings.

But if we say things like the harming of others and physical abuse are wrong, then what about situations where the person deserves it in the extreme? What if they killed members of your family; is it OK to retaliate against them if given the chance?