Dec 15 - Queen'sOpal - Part 1

[Frog]

Okay here we go. Like I said in the email, my submission ran a bit long, but I really wanted to get to the first chapter because I think it probably needs more work than the prologue, so feel free to only critique that part of it. And if you have time to read them both, then I'll love you even move. Thank you!

[Chaos]

All right, I've read both parts. As basic impressions go, I liked the Prologue far more than Chapter One.

I found Vernack and the dragonets far more interesting than the humans, wizards, or elves. I find that elves are just overused, so much so that I don't really care much about them. Dragonets, however, I really like. From the Prologue, it seems that the dragonets are a force for stability in the world, by dispersing around to different factions. The telepathy makes that task easy, since they can all know what is going on in the world. It makes me curious what the dragonets really want, and how they were created. Very good with the dragonets.

Same with the drow. I always want to hear more about demons.

On those two worldbuilding fronts, very good job.

Elves, though... Meh. Well, in the Prologue, it was good because the elves and the wizards are obviously not on good terms. I found the part when Garrad killed them to be very good. In chapter one, on the other hand, I just don't care enough about the elves. Their only distinctive property from other elves in other stories is that these ones appear to be shorter. Other than that, they aren't really fascinating subjects.

At first, the use of the <> got on my nerves, but once I got to the first chapter, I realized you wanted to distinguish the dragonet's telepathy with internal thoughts, and I think that decision makes perfect sense.

Major question: I want to know the significance of the Queen's Opal (I presume the Demon Queen is the Queen referenced there). As of now, I do not see why it would motivate Garrad so much. If Drynn is your main character, though, I'm sure you will explore this question in greater detail. You may want to explain at least a segment of its importance now, because right now, I'm not seeing it.

I'm interested as to whether the elves were actually the cause of the Drow War (releasing the demons, I presume) or that is just stretch of Garrad's. That is one nice thing about your elves: they are not superior to other races, it seems, as the normal Tolkienesque fantasy would have them. That is such a nice change of pace.

I do have a couple of critical problems with the way the story is written as of now. It's not bad, but it feels really telly. For example:

Garrad didn’t even try to deny it. “Well we’ve seen what happens when you try to be our equals.”

"Garrad didn't even try to deny it" is a very telly statement. Show me Garrad didn't try to deny it. Now, my policy with show-don't-tell is that it is okay to sometimes tell, but those "thoughtshots" where you get to tell should be thoughts or interpretations from your viewpoint characters. To me, it felt like there was way too much of Vernack interpreting and not enough showing.

That was probably my main problem with Chapter One in a general sense. Right in that first pragraph of the first chapter, it's telly. The whole thing doesn't have enough showing for me to really feel for Drynn. As it stands now, I don't really care a whole lot about Drynn. I don't know if that's a problem with the character himself or the way he is presented, but either way, I didn't get a feel for him.

The only thing beyond the telly-ness of it is the over-use of bizarre dialogue tags. I see what is going on here: you don't want to use the word "said". Now, a quick use of ctrl+f on your manuscript and it comes up somewhat in Chapter One (none in the prologue), but when verbs like "reported" start appearing, I get a little worried that you are a bit overzealous with the dialogue tags. For example: " “She is gone,” their father reported with a vague expression on his face." Is "reported" even necessary? It doesn't exactly add a whole lot.

It's okay to use said. It's okay to use it a lot. The thing with verbs like "said" and "asked" is that they are transparent--it does not bring attention to itself, it brings attention to the dialogue. "Reported" is stretching it. We know their father is reporting it just by the virtue of what is in the dialogue. The dialogue, in that case, is interesting, not how it is said. I mean, if you switched it to "said" there, you really aren't losing anything, because we still get the prepositional phrase which describes it further. So... yeah, don't be afraid of "said". It's used a bunch and it's okay.

In review, I am a lot more intrigued with Vernack and Garrad than anything that Drynn is doing.

[Frog]

Oh wow, thank you! Lots of good stuff to think about…
First off, like I said before, the prologue is a lot a more solid then chp 1. I’m just not sure how to fix it. I mean, the events in the prologue happen a long time before my story takes place and since then the races, especially the elves, have isolated themselves to the point where any conflict they have is rather juvenile until I have them leave the forest. I’m trying to streamline it and kick them out as soon as possible, (believe me this is much shorter than the version I made poor Wilson read) but other than that, I don’t know how to make it more exciting other then to introduce everyone as quickly as I can and try to make it a little humorous. So I kind of have the prologue there to give you a hint to where I am going for the ultimate climax where all these issues are explained  and reach the surface again, (especially the drow) hoping that you will bear with me for awhile, but if you have any other suggestions on how to make that process easier on the reader, I’m all ears (or eyes as the case may be).
I’m sorry if the elves fell flat to you. They are quite different then Tolkienesque elves (at least in my opinion), but I had a hard time showing that at first without the dreaded ‘info dump.’ I hope you will get more of these differences by 2nd chapter (where I explain the Opal a bit more too right off the back), but some of it I kinda have you learn as you go. You already noticed (which I am happy to see) the most important difference: they are on equal footing when it comes to humans/wizards (maybe even at a bit of a disadvantage).
Yea! I love Vernack and the other dragonets too (as they are probably my most unique creation)… unfortunately, he doesn’t come back for awhile (he’s still in the human kingdom, so they kinda have to find him again). But this is a multi character/line story, so it has been my experience that people who read it (yes, mostly friends and family so far) pick their favorites that get them through it and it is not always Drynn, even if he is technically the MC. That is fine with me, and I still am holding out hope that you’ll find someone else to love, but I’ll keep searching for other methods to help Drynn come more alive too.
Totally agree with you about the ‘said’ problem… I heard it once before, and tried to fix it, but obviously missed a few spots…
So thanks again for getting through it all and I hope you will stick with me for the next chuck.

[Chaos]

Oh, you bet I'll read the next chunk

What I mean to say about the elves is that... I just find that having a lot of different races can become kind of cliche, which is why I don't use them in my writing. It's just that part of me coming through, that's all It's not a reflection on the story. I'm sure any story that had elves would annoy me on some level.

[little wilson]

"Poor Wilson"? I don't consider myself poor for having read the longer version of this....I rather liked the longer version of it. And since I read pretty much the whole manuscript in one night....Well. Let's just say I was very sleep-deprived but I didn't really care. But you already know that....

As for this version. I've already told you what I think of the prologue (at least I'm pretty sure I did). First, though. One thing I don't think I mentioned. I think it's a lot better with how the story goes from here, that it was 3 elves that Garrad killed as opposed to the thousand that it was before....Much better. Liked that a lot.

Question: Why'd you change it from dragnet to dragonet? Was it just to enforce the idea of dragons? Cuz I liked 'dragnet' better personally....And I actually keep reading it as dragnet and then saying 'wait! no! it's dragonet.'...Just curious.

The rest now. I understand what Chaos means about the elves. But since I know where the story goes, and how the elves really are, I have to disagree with him. But only because I'm more informed. Your elves are NOT generic elves. Which is good.

I kind of miss Tayvin's tourney with Andver. But I understand why it was cut. And I think it works the way you referred back to it. It's really not a crucial part in the story, so there's no real point to have it....I agree that Chapter One needs some tightening. But you already know that. I'll make some notes with the tools on Word and send it back to you later this week after I get my laptop back (I don't want to do it on one of the family computers and save it on one of them. Everything QO- and QH-related should stay on my computer....)

Yeah. So, I'll do that and get it back to you. And since you've changed the story so much since I last read it and I still haven't got the chance to reread the whole copy you sent me (and now that you're doing this I don't think I'll spoil it for myself by reading it ahead of time), so I'm really curious how the other character's stories are going to change, or adapt to other changes made....One character in particular. I think you can guess who I mean, but I won't mention this character's name because I don't want to possibly ruin the suspense that could be created....Let's just say I'm looking forward to reading about a certain night out on the town with a certain blonde person. And later that night, in the same town, a certain elf who may or may not have an open window in his room....

[Necroben]

I have to agree and say the prologue kept me in the story better than Chapter 1.  I could identify with your characters better. (I think Garrad  is human?)  I could have missed the reference.

Unfortunately it wasn't until late in the 1st chapter (when their Mom died) that I really began to build a repore with Drynn.

I don't know if it is you intention or not, but I kinda felt like I was reading a Forgotten Realms book.  (D&D world)

I too am intrigued.   I like where you seem to be going with the story, and there seem to be a lot of familiar elements to it.  Good job, it's something that I would continue to read.

[M]

It was late for me when I read this, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.  I didn't have time to read the whole thing, so I skipped to chapter one per your instructions. 

First of all, coming from someone who doesn't much care for this genre...I really liked your first chapter.  Where others might want you to world build or go into magic systems or whatever, you kept it simple and not to complicated. I liked that.  You brought the reader in at a good pace.  You didn't overwhelm me with facts about your Elf world.  Also, the characters are easy to follow, you immediately distinguished them very well and that is commendable. 

Ok, just some tiny things. 

How could a woman, as young and active as his mother had been, die when the when others of her age would outlive a few trees?

Just too many "When's in this sentence.

Drynn hadn’t thought of himself as a child for years, but wouldn’t say so, even though the king often paused for so long between ideas that it seemed painful.

I didn't understand that last part of that sentence...I must have missed something earlier.  Here is another one I didn't get.

Drynn said quickly in hopes that would end the interview, not because he expected that he would wish to trouble his aunt or anyone else in the holt.

Now, this is just my personal opinion (and I struggle at this too), but I think your first opening sentence should be something that catches your eye. 

Drynn didn’t like to fence and he wasn’t very good at it either.

Too me...this wasn't that catchy (keeping in mind I didn't read the prologue).

What I really liked:  The jerk father was done very well.  He seems really heartless and evil (if that is what you are not going for, then I suggest making him a little more sympathetic to your MC and brothers feelings). 

What I wonder about:  The girls in your book are very one-dimensional.  They give the token girly giggle when around boys and are obsessed about them.  If you are going for the pre-teen stereotype of immature girls, then you nailed it.  Otherwise, if you plan on making any of these girls into definitive characters, you might want to downplay the Hanna Montana fan club. 

My only recommendation:  Get to the conflict quick.  This is probably in chapter 2, but get to it quick.  Draw us in faster. 

Overall, I really liked your first chapter.  Sorry I didn't get to the prologue but from what I read, I think you are on the right track.

P.S. I also appreciate you reading my story as well.  Your feedback was awesome.  I really could see where I was struggling and how the reader was confused by my flashback.  I plan on making those changes per your feedback.  Thanks again.

[Frog]

Yeah...looking at it now, I'm seriously considering cutting the first two paragraphs and see if getting through the tourney faster helps matters.

Wilson- Wow, I can't pull anything past you... I'm impressed
Yes, I cut down elf numbers quite a bit now that it needed actual characters and things rather than having it strictly flashback mode like it was before.
As for dragnet vs dragonet; the reason for the change was that I found out that Dragnet is some kind of cop/gov organization w/ its own show and everything. I am still kinda partial to the word, but I looked online and found that stories w/ somewhat similar creatures (outside appearance if not the powers) were called dragonets, so I thought it would give my audience a clearer picture of what Vernack was right off the back and eliminate some of the confusion of using him as the narrator.
Yeah, liked that little detail about Andver too, so I had to get it in somewhere
And that one part is basically the same (for now.... Mu ha ha ha!)

Necro- Garrad is a human wizard. I might never had said that outright and if it was confusing I will most certainly fix it (it wasn't meant to be). And, yes, I am a nerd that played D&D as a child... and as an adult (shh...don't tell anyone).

M-Thank you! I will look at those sentences again. Yes, you aren't supposed to like the father (evil may be over the top, but for now it will do) and the girls are all the annoying high school/fan girls of my past that I love to tease so much. So yea! . And I liked your story a lot, so I'm glad it was helpful .

A lot of my stuff may seem 'cliche' (I'll go ahead and admit it since I plan for you to find out anyway) but I kinda see them as staples in fantasy, that I (for one) don't get too tired of as long as you make it your own some how (kinda like romance readers/writers never seem to get tired of the old 'guy finds girl, loses girl, gets girl' and 'love triangle' motif).  You are all free to give me your own opinions on the matter and cyberly throw rotten veggies if you see it as a major hang up.

[Silk]

Responding to the discussion first…

I wondered a bit about the < > too. I realized before very long at all that you were using it to distinguish the thoughts of the other dragonets, and can’t really think of a better way to do it. It’s not a huge deal. On the other hand, it does look kind of … Animorphs… (Yes, I read those books. I was ten! Leave me alone!)

Contrary to Chaos, I actually assumed that the Queen’s Opal was the stone Drynn gets at the end of chapter one. Though those aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. I mention this more as a point of interest than anything.

You were talking about only having “juvenile” conflicts until you kick the elves out of the forest… Remember, even the most basic, dare I say mundane conflicts, can be interesting. And you have conflict here already – or hinted at. The relationship between the two brothers could be expanded a lot more, I think, and you’d have a lot more conflict then. Maybe not in terms of people warring and fighting and dying. But Drynn hating fencing, feeling a little bit second best to his brother, whether he admits it or not, having no idea how to deal with the womenfolk – you have the potential for lots of conflict. Even before his mother dies.

Oh, and I didn’t think the elf king was necessarily heartless and a jerk. There are all sorts of reasons why he might be so detached from his wife’s death, and it would be interesting to see some of them. Right now he does seem a bit one dimensional – reserved, emotionless elf king – but that could very easily explored, and probably should be. How much time you want to spend doing so, of course, depends on how large a part he plays in the story. 

My comments:

“He was a dragonet” – any way you could say this while being a little less, er, clunky?

 I personally don’t really care but the “elves, dwarves, drow” thing can be a turn off for some fantasy readers who think they’ve seen it all (even dragonets, as seen in McAffery’s Pern novels). On the other hand there are advantages to using the “built in” races, if you will, so I guess it all depends on what you’re doing and who you want to read this. I think it’s kind of a silly thing for people to not read stories over, but some of them might. And I think the only reason people thought of this as a D&D world is because elves  and especially drow are just so associated with Forgotten Realms it isn’t funny. Personally, you can do whatever you want, and as long as you don’t write with your d20 in hand, I’m happy. (No seriously. In some Wizards of the Coast books, you can literally see the dice rolling.)

The elf’s first line – “We have good news, the war is over” seems kind of strange. For one thing, I wonder why Garrad doesn’t know this already. Besides, wars are rarely “over” just like that, there would be little insurgences or whatever you want to call them still happening. Of course, the latter can be explained by the elf wanting to put as good a face on things as possible. Something that Garrad could point out himself, perhaps?

Page 7, Garrad says: “She has no more claim to it if she ever did.” The meaning is unclear to me.

I’m not finding Garrad a sympathetic character at all. I’m finding him so unsympathetic, in fact, that I’m wondering why the elves are even putting up with him. He seems kind of like.. a tyrant.

I’m also wondering about the dragonents. They seem to be commonplace – at least, Vernack’s thoughts indicate that there are a lot of them, and nobody seems to look twice at him – and it seems to me that if dragonets are so commonplace, more people should regard them as the intelligent creatures they actually are.

On page nine, one of Vernack’s kin asks if he’s all right. You write “Vernack had no answer for her”. If the person who asks this is an actual character, you might want to distinguish them from the mass of actual voices.

On the last page of the prologue, you write “Vernack had many companions”. I didn’t realize right away that you’d slipped into an omniscient over-the-years type voice, and when this line came up I thought you were just saying Vernack had a lot of friends. I think that whole transition could be done a little more clearly and smoothly. I kind of had to step back and reason out that you’d switched into a more historical sort of voice, and I found that jarring. 

I have Tayvin and Drynn pinned at around seventeenish. (Or the appropriate elven equivelant, if your elves have the whole longevity thing going on for them. That is, I’m assuming these two are elves.)

You have a tendency to use a lot different dialogue tags – “he reported”, etcetera, and sometimes the words you pick seem off. Remember that there’s nothing wrong with saying “he said”. As the guys over on Writing Excuses say, verbs like “said” are invisible – we don’t notice them. Plus, you can sometimes cut extra verbiage out by eliminating the dialogue tags entirely when it’s clear who’s speaking.

Drynn seems to have adjusted awfully quickly to his mother’s death. I have very little specifc things to point to. On page 21 he makes one reference to his mother “when she was alive”, but other than that… I’m not quite sure what it is, but he doesn’t seem to be either deep in grief or deep in shock. I hate giving vague criticisms like this when I can’t pin down exactly why something doesn’t work for me, but I really do think it’s worth mentioning…

I think that’s about all I have for you. Seems like a strong start so far.

[spejoku]

This is very good, but I do have a couple of things that made me pause.

The wizard council in the prologue just stops existing when Garrad and Vernack start talking to each other.  Do they know about Dragonets or no?  Also, I think that when Garrad sucks the life out of the elves it's a bit clunky.  A better image (in my opinion) would be showing the elves' skin start withering or something like that and Vernack feel the power flowing into him.  It leaves the whole life stealing thing without saying "he drained their life". 

Also, I don't really like Drynn.  he seems too whiny to me, but I have issues with drow and elves even being in the story.  (You could even rename the Drow if they look more demonic.  Elves with white hair and black skin seem kinda tame for being possessed by demons) Anyway, I play D&D too, so I understand the desire to put them in.  Anyway, I feel like I'm being told about Drynn without being in his head.   It seems too telly to me.  And he gets over stuff too quick.  If you put in a line about him just glancing over his mother's death in disbelief or something like that (and have him mentally refer to in the present tense) it would come across as a bit more sincere.

But seriously, this is one of the best traditional fantasies I've read in a long time.  Keep it up, and watch out for those "asked" and "reported"s 

[Frog]

SilknSnow: Now that you mention it, I read Animorphs back in the day too, but I didn't even remember that they did that until you mentioned it. Which is usually how my bouts of 'creativity' go... Aw, well. I really don't know if there is a better way to do it at this point. I mean, in Eragon he just uses the italics and lets you figure it out, but that is a little annoying to me too...

Actually you and Chaos are both right. I hope you'll be able to see this as time goes on.

Thanks, I am working on bringing those conflicts out more. And the King will be explored, just not yet which is why I said it was okay for M to discount him as less than warm and fuzzy for now.

Who do I want to read it? That's a good question. Anyone that will I guess.... It's not especially dark or complicated, so probably a bit younger audience (or at least the more casual reader) than the usual Forgotten Realms crowd. And don't worry. No dice were used in the making of this book.

Guilt mostly. Just like Garrad, the elves blame themselves for the drow. Why? Now that is exactly the question I intend to carry through to the climax, so I won't get into that now. I tried to show that Garrad was sympathetic to his people, just not the elves because of the drow. Unfortunately, he is not a big enough character for me to spend much more time on his inner psyche at the moment, but the book is still young and there are many things to be explained.

Others might be surprised to see a dragonet (They are pretty exclusive about their companions, who they 'talk' to and he was hiding in the rafters at first for a reason) but the ones that are with Garrad are used to seeing Vernack, and they are used to Garrad being a bit mad about talking to him (Garrad wouldn't have done that in public either if he hadn't been so upset). The elves might have been a bit more surprised, but I kind of saw that as the least of their concerns at the moment....

Wow, you're like right in the middle. Later on, I tell you right out (in a coversation w/ another character) that Tayvin is  the elven equivalent 19 and Drynn is 15. Sweet.

Don't worry. Chaos already thoroughly smacked me around for the tags and I am repenting as we speak.

I will also look at the individual lines you mentioned again. Some of them I hope will make more sense as time goes on (like what happened in the final battle that made it conclusively over and why Garrad and a lot of the other humans were sitting at home instead of fighting... though mostly I used the line to show the elves' desire to get past all their previous conflict; a sentiment Garrad obviously doesn't share), but if your confused to the point of irritation, that will have to be addressed.

Oh, and Drynn really hasn't adjusted. He just is not a big reactor (like his brother is) and takes a bit longer for him to process it. The second chapter starts without a real time break and hopefully you will see this more (hazard of chapters being broken up like this).

Spejoku: They know that Vernack exists...not the powers. And they are a bit detached from them (elevated stands is all I said, but what I meant is that they are kind of in a balcony area) so they can watch, but are not really close enough to join into such a short (and one sided) conversation. I will look at the draining part again... I was just worried about being too detailed because this is another thing I will be exploring later. And I'm working on 'showing' Drynn more too (it's kinda nice when you guys all agree on something ).

Thank you so much! You guys are great!

[Chaos]

Contrary to Chaos, I actually assumed that the Queen’s Opal was the stone Drynn gets at the end of chapter one. Though those aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. I mention this more as a point of interest than anything.

...

Well, I knew that much. Captain obvious

I was more wondering why we should care if Drynn received the Queen's Opal. What is special about it?

[little wilson]

What is special about it?

haha...That's something you're just gonna have to wait for....

I think it's hilarious some of the questions you guys are asking. I've already read the book (or at least the older, longer version of it), and you guys (Silk in particular) are asking some questions that I know won't be answered until later in the book. Much later....And it makes me sad, because when I read it I had no idea what was going on until it happened....Well. Except for one thing. I figured out something a fair bit before it was revealed, and I'm like "Yes! I'm so smart!"....And now here you guys are ripping my pride to shreds. Apparently I'm not as smart as I thought....

[Frog]

But it was a pretty big thing... You still are my favorite fan! (And no, I don't pay her nearly enough for all the nice things she says about me. She's just cool that way.)
The book really hasn't changed all that much. Just the beginning, the end and me attempting to fix some of the structural/fluffy/telly stuff in the middle. Are you disappointed?

[Reaves]

Alright, for those of us who don't know...what is a Drow? You don't even have to tell me what they are like in your book, just the traditional fantasy archetype. Please? I feel so clueless. Until I read some of these posts I had thought they were something you had made up yourself...