Angst & Frustrations Galore

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Gorgon, morals come from God. So yes, they are black and white. There are differences between principles (which are absolute and unchanging) and commandments (many of which can change according to the needs and situations of the people), and sometimes people confuse commandments or social customs with morals, but God has predetermined the root right and wrong. Not men.

No one's arguments are going to change that fact. Though I don't expect someone who has not had the same spiritual experiences to believe the same way, that does not change the truth. If you don't know it now, you'll know it sooner or later.

[MsFish]

MsFish, I find this to be an extremely funny situation. It doesn't seem like it should make sense, but it does. Yes I see what you are saying now.

Good!  And you're right, it is funny.    

[Archon]

Ookla, I think you make a good point, but I also disagree somewhat. Saying that morals come from God is specifying that the morals of your religion are the right ones. Whether or not I agreed with your morals, I would still have to say that you can't confine morality to your religion, because that is very close to the idea that all of the other religions are wrong, and/or immoral. There is room for disagreement in religion. I do agree, however, that some morals are absolute. I just don't agree that they are necessarily God's morals. I also think that it is inconsiderate of Gorgon's free will to say that he will eventually agree with you. You might be right, but it sounds like you are saying that everyone will eventually agree with you, because you are right. Many different rational, intelligent people choose different religions. So I think it is overconfident to say that no other religion is the right one for anyone.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I think you're far too easily offended, Archon. It's amusing that you say that Ookla shouldn't believe in something because it tells someone else to believe.

How's about I let you in on a clue. All this business of "all religions are one path to the same thing" doesn't make a lot of sense to many of us. When Ookla says that morals come from God, well, I'm guessing that he actually IS saying that his religion is the right one. It doesn't mean that other religions don't have any truth or are totally immoral, but it does mean that the only place for complete and total morality is the religion he believes in. Most people, including you from the way you say things, believe that they are correct in the things they believe in. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense to continue to believe it.

Now, to be clear, that doesn't mean you can't be tolerant, loving, and friendly to people that disagree with you. It's not bad or even demeaning to believe or even to know that someone else is wrong.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Saint, I wouldnt put much stock in Archon being able to deal with what you just said.

[Archon]

SE, I do not have a problem with Ookla saying that he thinks ______. I do have a problem with him acting like I should think ______. There is a difference between believing in your faith and telling other people that they are wrong for having a different faith. For instance, I don't think that there is a God. But I acknowledge that other faiths might be right that there is a God. Because I can't be sure. I just don't think that there is one. If we aren't saying that you can't tell other people what to think, then I would have been handling myself a lot differently. I act like I do to try to not step on toes, or offend anyone. Trust me, ask Gorgon or Onion, I am not generally as careful to consider what other people think, and I am not sensitive. My thought was that if I were to debate how I do normally, that many people would get angry and the thread would get locked very quickly.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

That's only because when you normally debate you disregard what anybody else has to sy and blurt out whatever comes to mind.  

Ookla, I can prove morals don't come from God.  I son't believe in God.  I have a set of morals.  Therefor, my morals must not have come from God, as even if there is a God (I am not saying there is or isn't for sure (on the board, at least)) I don't follow his word.  Therefor, his morals don't  apply to me.  And I still have a set of morals, which are:

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

Yes, I have a set of rules concerned with the judgement of goodness or badness of human actions and character.  And, more than likely, my morals aren't the same as yours - so your God couldn't have infused us both with the same morals without me knowing, either.

Now, I am not saying that your morals don't come from your God.  Sure, your God may have given you black or white morals, but back to my origional argument - unless you can PROVE your God gave you those morals (and therefor prove your God's existance), you can't tell me they are right.  Morals are exactly like religion - mine differs from yours and neither of us can say the other guy is wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

sorry to say Gorgon your belief in god wouldnt matter to Ookla. It like a rattlesnake, you can belive in it or not belive in it but if you wave your hand in front of it your still going to get bit. Thats not proof that morals come from anywhere.

[Archon]

But you say that God has a certain set of morals. And you also say that God is the one who gives people morals. Then why would God give Gorgon different morals than Ookla?

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Jeffe, I don't think you get my point.  He said morals come from God.  Whether or not his morals come from God, the definition of a moral is something that is concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character.  My morals are just that.  Whether or not they are the morals his God told him to believe in, they are stiull morals.  And unless he can prove to me that his God exists, his guess as to what morals are is no better than mine.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

he doesnt, obviously free will and experience are factors,... the main problem though is that you an Gorgun are using the word Morals as a stand in for the word Ethics.

In addition, he doesnt have to prove anything to you, its a statement of personal fact. What he means by his interpritation of the word morals and where it comes from is not able to be debated.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Ahem.  My little thesaurus buddy had a little something to say about us using morals and ethics like they are the same word.

Entry:        morals
Part of Speech:        noun
Definition:        principles
Synonyms:        behavior, beliefs, conduct, customs, ethic, ethics...

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Take a college course in philosophy... its a common misconception that they are the same word. In addition using the thesaurus to change one word for another is a bad idea... Try it some time on your next paper you can make something mean something completely different by using a word thats listed in the thesaurus.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Ethical stresses idealistic standards of right and wrong

Moral applies to personal character and behavior, especially sexual conduct

and thats the breif version.... Plato wrote a whole book on the subject...

[MsFish]

I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that anyone was arguing that every moral  comes from God.  My interpretation of what Ookla was saying (which may be accurate or not)is that God has given a set of morals, which are black and white right and wrong, whether or not you choose to believe them.  
That doesn't mean that everything that you believe to be moral or unmoral comes from God.  You have every right to determine your own set of morals.  That doesn't make them true or untrue, because God has determined what is absolute truth and what is not.  

Gorgon and Archon--why do you turn every argument into a debate over whether or not there is absolute truth?  (I mean nothing antagonistic by that, lest I be misinterpreted again.  I just notice this pattern, and I'm curious.)  That's what this boils down to, and really, there's no way to argue for or against that.  You either believe it, or you don't, and if you don't, then why argue about it?