WOT Help

[douglas]

Crossroads of Twilight.

[Shaggy]

Oh, right…makes sense.

[darxbane]

I'll say one piece of evidence that people tend to dismiss.  RJ writes that the words "hung in the air".  The only other times RJ uses this phrase is when something is Balefired (Bel'al, Darkhounds, etc).  It has to be someone who can channel, and it has to be someone who knows how to use Balefire.  RJ's "intuitively obvious" statement included the mention that all the clues were available by the end of Fires of Heaven.  Now, he has later admitted that he was mistaken to believe it so obvious.

Stealing/Borrowing: This debate makes me chuckle.  I find that most people who complain about something being too similar to other works are also the last to like anything new as well.  Quite the paradox.  The fact is that you can find similarities in anything if you look hard enough.  Even Grandpa Tolkien's works were influenced by the Akabellath (sp), which is a Finnish story of a wise old man who helps people when they need it most, and a ring that at first grants you wishes, but over time makes you regret ever finding it.  Sound familiar?  Elves and Dwarves were in Norse mythology going back hundreds of years, so Tolkien wasn't really the first with that, either.  He was the first to portray them in such a way, however, and his style of writing is just awesome.  It is nearly impossible to be completely original.  At the risk of sounding like a Fanboy, I have read WOT almost twice now (finishing KoD), and the only part I find that drags are the sections that speak of Elayne's opposition to the throne.  Of course, I enjoyed the Simarrilion, so I may be a little odd.

[Comfortable Madness]

Asmodean. Let's theorize a little here. In the scene where Asmodean dies he gives he a few clues to work off of.

all quotes taken from TFoH chap 56

1. He knows the killer instantly by look alone "One step, and he stopped,"
2. He is also very afraid of the killer. After he recognizes him we get this "the blood draining from his face."
3. His final words to the killer are "'You? No!' So he is surprised to see this killer and knows he is about to die.

Using that little bit of info and RJ's original statement of it being obvious who it was my money is on Shaidar Haran. It is in the very next book's prologue where we are finally formally introduced to this super myrddraal. Also who else would strike such instant fear into one of the Forsaken? With Asmodeans help Rand is able to figure out weaves quicker and ways in which to further his cause in more efficient manners. Thus, eliminating some of the chaos the dark one wishes him to create. Therefore, it serves Shaidar Haran greatly to remove Asmodean.

[darxbane]

There are two flaws with that theory.  First, RJ said we could figure it out with what we had by the end of Fires of Heaven, which excludes the prologue you mention.  Second, Shaidar Haran can't channel, and none of the Foresaken even know who he is until later on, after he is first introduced.  Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him.  Asmodean was BALEFIRED!!!!!!!  This is why it is so hard to figure out.  Everyone has a theory and sticks to it despite evidence to the contrary.

[Reaves]

Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him. 

I think that is the major flaw in Madness' theory. Also, I quite like your balefire idea. Fires of Heaven had sooo much balefire in it that it was almost the book's defining point as far as furthering the magic system.

[Comfortable Madness]

There are two flaws with that theory.  First, RJ said we could figure it out with what we had by the end of Fires of Heaven, which excludes the prologue you mention.  Second, Shaidar Haran can't channel, and none of the Foresaken even know who he is until later on, after he is first introduced.  Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him.  Asmodean was BALEFIRED!!!!!!!  This is why it is so hard to figure out.  Everyone has a theory and sticks to it despite evidence to the contrary.

I assume you are including yourself in that mix?   Yeah I was just theorizing. You are probably right about the balefire but that makes it one of the forsaken, right? Well if that was the case it just seems to obvious I just want it to be something out of leftfield. I read one theory where they had this big explaination on why it was Elayne that killed Asmodean. I know crazy right?

[IngtarWhoStoleChristmas]

There are two flaws with that theory.  First, RJ said we could figure it out with what we had by the end of Fires of Heaven, which excludes the prologue you mention.  Second, Shaidar Haran can't channel, and none of the Foresaken even know who he is until later on, after he is first introduced.  Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him.  Asmodean was BALEFIRED!!!!!!!  This is why it is so hard to figure out.  Everyone has a theory and sticks to it despite evidence to the contrary.

You too! ;-) I'm not convinced he was balefired. The "hang in the air" thing may or may not be a reference to that. It could be a reference to a very quick kill with a blade too. As I'm not really sure who killed him or the exact method (i've got my ideas) I'm going with the true "obvious answer" Bela did it!

[douglas]

No, no, no, don't you remember Brandon answered this for us?  It was Narg.

[IngtarWhoStoleChristmas]

lol I had forgotten the Narg angle. Talk about the Law of Charachter Conservation!! :-) Perhaps the two of them worked in tandem? Ahh we'll find out soon ;-)

[Shaggy]

I don't think a knife would work 'cause (1) it was SOOO quick (2) we didn't hear any nosie and (3) I think Asmodean would have had time to react in SOME way.

[Shard]

You guys are also forgetting that we don't meet Shadar Haran until Book 6, so let's try not to spoil JoeC ok? So it can't be him, and yes I think it's a channeller as well. There are ways for a channeler to channel and not be detected, which again is something we learn in Book 6. Though I will use a different arguement and that if a small amount of balefire was used, just enough to erase him from a few seconds, maybe even just one. Then factor in distance from Avi and Rand, it is possible for it to go undetected.

Still if were to go with crackpot theories I'd vote for Bubble of Evil, at least we've been introduced to that by book 5.

And Narg was a joke, 

[JoeC]

I honestly found Chris Paloini's series to be very paint by the numbers, especially when the Uncle was giving a man to man talk on life. "Your going to die aren't you? *next chapter* Yep he died." I'm sorry but that got old and stale quickly, I found Brandon to be really refreshing.

I am curious as I have never seen WoT compared to RA's work, what parts did you feel mirrored between the two authors?

Yeah Paolini's books were more of a fun throwaway. I equate it with the "I'll watch this because nothing else is on TV right now" type of deal. He's got talent, but 15 was too young to tackle something like that.
I'm a huge Salvatore fan. I've read all of the Drizzt book and I find them just as exciting as the Mistborn trilogy. That's saying a LOT. I can't remember every similarity, just that there were a lot of times reading WOT books that I thought "Hmmm......Salvatore had that too." The descriptions of fight scenes are similar, although R.A. goes through every move, duck, pivot, slash, block, etc. LOL The Aes Sedai structure of female superiority is similar to the Matron Mothers of Drizzt's homeland Menzoberanzan. Again, I'm not saying RJ stole anything. I just figured I'd give another example of similarities in books, as you've been discussing. Like I said, I don't mind it as long as it isn't too in your face.

I'll say one piece of evidence that people tend to dismiss.  RJ writes that the words "hung in the air".  The only other times RJ uses this phrase is when something is Balefired (Bel'al, Darkhounds, etc).  It has to be someone who can channel, and it has to be someone who knows how to use Balefire.  RJ's "intuitively obvious" statement included the mention that all the clues were available by the end of Fires of Heaven.  Now, he has later admitted that he was mistaken to believe it so obvious.

Interesting. I didn't pick that up. Although, I imagine Rand, Aviendha, or the Wise Ones may have sensed it. No I don't think it was obvious about who it was. I was left scratching my head, only to come here and discover that it is one of the biggest debates in the WOT fandom! I do think balefire is possible, because in LOC Rand mentions that Asmodean has disappeared. No body, plus somebody would have a hard time taking off with a body while Rand and his army was there. Who knows.......

You guys are also forgetting that we don't meet Shadar Haran until Book 6, so let's try not to spoil JoeC ok?

I'm about 120 pages into Lord of Chaos, so yes I have met him. I appreciate your awareness though! LOL

I might make an update for you guys on Thursday. I haven't now because not much has happened. The prologue was 63 pages long!!! Although, I was excited to get a glimpse inside Shayol Ghul. Demandred goes there and speaks directly with the Dark One. VERY good way to start this book off. Shaidar Haran interests me too. I thought he was pretty cool and I can't wait to see him in action. Few things:
-The Dark One wants to make Demandred his second in command. Does that mean Ishamael/Ba'alzamon used to be second in command? I'm still not sure how he made fire in his eyes or mouth but no other Forsaken has done that yet.
-Osan'gar and Aran'gar: Two Forsaken have been ressurected? Very interesting.
-Mazrim Taim working for Rand. I actually like him even though Rand doesn't. Just now, when I was reviewing the prologue I noticed similarities between him and Demandred. It might be forshadowing, it might not. I'm keeping my eyes open.
-Perrin back in the story, thank God!
-Nyneave and Elayne learning from "Marigan" LOL. I still am not 100% sure how they are getting away with all that but apparently they are and are earning praise from the Aes Sedai. Elayne even MADE a terengrael!! I'm interested to see where that's going.

Whoops, I wound up doing an update didn't I? lol  Oh well, I've got more reading to do. Thanks for contributing to the thread you guys!! Talk to you later!
-Joe

[douglas]

-The Dark One wants to make Demandred his second in command. Does that mean Ishamael/Ba'alzamon used to be second in command?

The Dark One has not yet designated a second, and he wasn't really offering that position to Demandred.  It was more of a reminder that the post remained open and an implication that it might be filled soon and, of course, that Demandred was a possible candidate.

I'm still not sure how he made fire in his eyes or mouth but no other Forsaken has done that yet.

That is never explicitly explained in the books, though RJ has explained it when asked.  The fire eyes are an advanced form of the saa.  When you know what the saa are (which is explained in the books, I'll let you RAFO) it will make sense.

-Osan'gar and Aran'gar: Two Forsaken have been ressurected? Very interesting.

Yup.  Aginor and Balthamel are back, one of them with a sex change.

At the same time, one limit on the Dark One's ability to resurrect the Forsaken has been revealed - anyone killed by balefire is beyond his reach.

-Nyneave and Elayne learning from "Marigan" LOL. I still am not 100% sure how they are getting away with all that but apparently they are and are earning praise from the Aes Sedai. Elayne even MADE a terengrael!! I'm interested to see where that's going.

A'dam are quite effective as prisoner restraints on women who can channel.  She cannot escape on her own, and as far as anyone else knows she's just an ordinary peasant woman who found a job as a servant.

[Razor]

Taimandred was another big theory as popular as who killed Asmodean.  Interesting you picked that up so quickly.

The female Forsaken (and one in particular) are most people's favorite Asmodean killers because Rand would have detected a male channeler and like LAnfear already demonstrated in earlier books, females can invert thier weaves so they cannot be detected.