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[darxbane]

Also, Rand wasn't captured by Aes Sedai in Far Madding.  He was captured by the City guard because Nynaeve's channeling through the "well" was still picked up by the big Ter'Angreal they have there.  Cadsuane frees him by showing the leaders there that the artificial stedding ter'angreal is not fulproof.

I guess you missed that Dashiva was actually Osangar, who used to be Aginor.  If you go back and read the Dashiva sections again, you will be amazed by how many little clues RJ gives.  I didn't catch on until the Cleansing scene, myself.

Alivia is the strongest channeler.  She is even stronger than Nynaeve, and Lanfear/Cyndane comments that she is even stronger than Lanfear was before her "incident".  The angreal she was wearing helped, but she is still uber strong.  Sharina's strength is more related to her willpower.  Even the Aes Sedai have to concentrate in order to stay above her.

There is one other consequence to the cleansing that will come up in KoD, so I won't mention it here, but for those who have read KoD, remember Tremalking?

The Seanchan hierarchy is strange, to say the least.  Her "TruthSpeaker" is not her maid, however, and she does not go with Tuon and Mat.  Mat learns he is to marry Tuon from the snakes.  I don't think Min's viewing was that specific.

[Renoard]

And since there have never been male channelers bonded as warders before this we don't know if they'll have the same reaction or not.  Compulsion may have a slightly different effect with the power on both ends.

[Rrikor]

I'm in my reread and Mat was just hung by the fox people.  I love Mats storyline.  He did learn that he had to marry the daughter of the nine moons from the snake people when he entered the ter'angreal in Tear.   However, from the context of which they talk, there answers are not set in stone like Min's are.  They say that if he doesn't go to Rhudean he will die.  That implies that he has a choice and there answers are open to change.  More of what is most likely rather then what will be.

[darxbane]

Their visions are set in stone.  They are certain that he will die if he doesn't go to Rhuidean.  They "see" all possible fates, and only told him the consequences because he asked what would happen if he didn't.   Everything after that was a clear path.

[JoeC]

It takes time for some to fall in love. What did you think about the whole relationship of Mat/Tylin? There are those that feel Tylin raped Mat.

I thought Mat and Tylin's relationship was very interesting. I honestly don't see what he's complaining about LOL. The idea of rape did not really even enter my mind. It's hard to make that case, besides the difficulty of explaining how a woman could rape a man. I mean, technically you could say Han Solo was a rapist (especially in today's uber sensitive world) because Leia told him many times to stop touching her and told him "no" and "stop that" while they were on the Millenium Falcon. We all know they turned out fine and were meant to be together. My point is that rape just doesn't have it's place in fiction unless it's meant to be there. Not EVERY relationship we read about can be 100% straight forward. It makes for a good read when things are complicated. I just think rape is way too serious a charge.

Actually Fain killed the last two Asha'man, I'm surprised you didn't note the ghost forms of the last two.

Well, I saw that Rand and Lan encountered their bodies and I knew Fain had killed them with the dagger, but Rand saw them come up the stairs, and it implied that he swiftly killed them with his sword. So I figured those two bodies must have been two other people. Maybe I should re-read that.

The woman running through the forest was Grendal, she faced off with Verin and her circle. Grendal is the one that wears color changing clothes.

Oooooooh I see. I remember. I'm surprised Greandel came out and fought!! Even if it was just from fear of Moridin's backlash against those who did not fight.

I'm surprised you didn't say anything about the death of Osan'gar/Dashiva...

LOL Know sumthin?? I had no idea that Dashiva was Osan'gar!! Not until I read your post. I can't believe I never picked that up. I consider myself a pretty careful reader, so I'm surprised that I miss these things. Glad he's dead though!

That's good to keep an open mind about it, this one really got alot of backlash I think when you remove the "2 year waiting period" it is easier to enjoy and get into. Soon after that will be Knife of Dreams and then you'll be in the same boat as the rest of us.

*muwhahahahahahahha*

Well, make room and save an oar!!

Also, sorry I got the whole Cadsuane/Alivia thing mixed up. It's confusing when Jordan describes characters we know but doesn't use their names. That's why I got it mixed up. I'm a little dissappointed though. I really would like to see Cadsuane square of with a Forsaken.

[Renoard]

Rape is about being coerced.  Of course it was rape for Tylin to use soldiers, bondage and the color of authority to rape Mat.  There's a quote from a leading feminist in the 60's to the effect that women won't truly be free until they are held accountable for rape, murder, etc. on a regular basis.  While that concept of freedom is debatable it does get at the issue that women are perfectly capable of intentional, unjustified violence.

Arguments for rape:
They were not married
She used coercion, authority, and the credible threat of violence
She prevented him from leaving, detained/imprisoned him

As for any tenderness he might have felt, check out Stockholm Syndrome.  What Tylin does is no better morally than the use of an A'dam.

[Patriotic Kaz]

*dances a jig* yes you are right... though i find that section disturbingly humorous (but then again it wasn't me) cutting off his clothes and jumping him freaked me out though

[darxbane]

uhh, I actually thought rape was being forced into sexual intercourse, and by that I mean directly forced.  Since Mat never actually refused Tylin, it can't be called rape.  He may not have liked every aspect of the relationship, and she was certainly taking advantage of him, but the moment he stood up to her and said he had to leave, she released him.  This is another example of culture clash.  I will agree that she takes advantage of him, but he also takes advantage of her, to a degree.  He gets to live like a prince, for the most part, which he believes is fair trade, despite how much he complains.  To call it rape minimizes the word, in my opinion.  As for your arguments:

1. Not being married is not even close to a reason it could be called rape, since being married does not mean you must have sex with your partner, nor does not being married mean you can't consent to sex. That argument is ridiculus, frankly.

She did abuse her authority and used veiled threats, but only to keep him around.  The sex part was never an issue for him.

As said above, we see that she lets him go the moment he directly asks her to release him.  Since the A'dam completely enslaves the victim, I can't agree that what Tylin does is as morally reprehensible.  

[Renoard]

Rape is being forced into sexual intercourse, by any means including coercion, threats, abuse of the color of authority, or extortion.  The same conditions but leading only to nudity or sexual contact other than intercourse or sodomy is sexual assault.  The same conditions leading to sodomy of the victim is criminal sodomy.  Trust me on this one, or pick up a penal code from any of the United States, or the armed forces thereof. ;P  As a writer Rigney's primary audience was those in the US, though I'm certain he appreciated every reader from any country.  So the legal context of his audience becomes relevant to the message of his writing.

As for the marriage question, of course I'm coming from a biblical perspective, so yeah for Christians it is a sin for either party to deny your spouse sex, except when there is a mutual agreement for a limited time.  The book of Ephesians is quite clear on this.  Granted this is a case of projecting Christian values into a speculative world, but I only mentioned it to quash any potential weaseling along those lines to argue Tylin didn't rape him.  In other words the same does NOT hold true for dating couples.  And Rigney liked to call himself "high church" Episcopal, so it is marginally relevant what Christian Dogma contains.

As I read it, the sex part became an issue for him, as soon as he became her "piglet" and she began to steal his clothes etc.  And what Tylin did used the threat of exposure to the Seanchan as well as other means to totally enslave him.  So yeah, the comparison stands.  I'd go further and suggest that Rigney intended a parallel to balance the a'dam.

Having female slaves and no male slavery to equate that violence to, would have alerted the PC cops.  So I think he intentionally introduced these tidbits of male slavery to placate the voice of censorship.

[douglas]

I seem to recall Tylin marching him to the bed at knife point and cutting his clothes off the first time, immediately after he explicitly refused her, so I think rape is the correct term for it.  Mat just did a good job of accepting the inevitable and making the best of it.  Still, comparing it to the a'dam is going rather too far.

[Comfortable Madness]

Not sure I would call it rape. Mat is really 100% ok with the end result, sexual intercourse, but he just doesn't like the way they arrive at said result.

Also, if you want to get technical no male can ever be "raped". The very definition of rape, in the legal system, is unlawful carnal knowledge of a FEMALE. Any sexual acts a male is forced to commit are labeled sexual assault.

[Renoard]

Sorry madness, you aren't correct.  That might be doctrine applied in a lot of courts, but it is not the way the statutes are written or should be written.  A male can certainly be raped.  You are just wrong.

California Penal Code 261 269

261.  (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances: . . .

[Shard]

Men can be raped, even if your going by the defination of penetration.

[Comfortable Madness]

Sorry madness, you aren't correct.  That might be doctrine applied in a lot of courts, but it is not the way the statutes are written or should be written.  A male can certainly be raped.  You are just wrong.

California Penal Code 261 269

261.  (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances: . . .

Actually I am not wrong. I believe that a male can certainly be "raped". But according to some statutes a male can technically not be raped. Whatever your personal view may be on the subject there are definately some statutes written that way.

Wikipedia
There is no national rape law in the United States. Each state has its own laws concerning sexual aggression. Nor is there any national standard in the US for defining and reporting male-male or female-perpetrated rapes. More than half the states use traditional sex-specific rape law, limited to male perpetration against females.

Also see Georgia Penal Code 16-6-1

(a) A person commits the offense of rape when he has carnal knowledge of:

(1) A female forcibly and against her will; or

(2) A female who is less than ten years of age.

Carnal knowledge in rape occurs when there is any penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ. The fact that the person allegedly raped is the wife of the defendant shall not be a defense to a charge of rape.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

If in those states where it doesn't count as "rape" it still counts as "sexual assault" then I'm not sure the difference amounts to much.