The Countdown

[Qarlin]

It just occurred to me; what if the world should have ended thousands of years ago, and (like in Alcatraz) has been arriving late to it's own death through the Heroes of Ages?

[happyman]

elmandr1,

I think what you need to realize is that while what you are suggesting is possible, many of us have a hard time accepting that it's the only possible outcome.  You keep saying "But it's possible" as though that somehow made it true.

There is a world of difference between what is possible and what is true.  It is almost impossible to prove something false unless evidence is given against which it can be compared.  Thus theories which have so many unknowns, like yours, are frankly quite boring.  We need them from time to time in order to test the limits of our own knowledge, but once we've actually hit those limits, we need to back down and not be partisan about them being true.  We just don't know. 

Enough on that.

Anyway, I also wanted to add that I am also looking forward to finding out more about how the world ended up like it did.  It seems quite likely that the world was a beautiful place, much like our real world, before TLR's ascension.  Otherwise what is all the talk about flowers and green plants about?  Clearly something odd has happened, and while a WoT scenario is possible I would hardly consider it the only or even the most likely possibility.  The prophecies certainly did come from somewhere, and they were corrupted only very late, so something odd is going on.

I look forward with anticipation.  There's always another secret.

[Andrew the Great]

[rantage]
[annoyance]

I've restrained myself to this point, but I honestly can't stand it any more.

Prophecies do NOT have to be thousands of years old. They don't even have to be one year old. All prophecies are born somewhere, so Elmandr1, your statement is, as Vegas put it, incorrect at best. Even if they come from some sort of God, or some cool person who for one reason or another has the ability to prophesy, they are born at some point. There is no reason they couldn't have been created recently.

Now, when a prophecy is kind of a legend, it tends to mean that it is older. That doesn't mean that it's been around since the beginning of time. In fact, in a society where history isn't always recorded and distribution of such things is nearly non-existent due to lack of printing, I can see a prophecy becoming legend in as short a time frame as 100 years. Granted, I think they are older.

Third, while it may be most likely that the prophecies really are prophecies from a credible source, this isn't always the case. One of the best books I ever read wasthis way. The main characters spent the whole series fulfilling a set of prophecies, then found out that another character had made them up about a hundred years previously. It was pretty nifty, the way it all worked out in the end.  

So, long story short, we really can't make statements like, "the prophecies have been around since the beginning of time," because we don't really know anything about the prophecies.

[/annoyance][/rantage]

And now happyman went and posted while I was typing, rendering about half of this post useless. Oh well.

Elmandr1, please don't take offense at all of us being somewhat annoyed. We don't think that your theories are wrong. We just don't know enough to prove or disprove them. We do appreciate that you add to the discussion. We just ask that you don't act like your theories are the only possible course because their possible.

That said, please do continue posting, You seem to be an intelligent person, which I appreciate greatly. Their in short supply, these days. Just please don't be so defensive of your theories when we say that we think it's possible but we don't really believe them.

[Elmandr]

[rantage]
[annoyance]

I've restrained myself to this point, but I honestly can't stand it any more.

Prophecies do NOT have to be thousands of years old. They don't even have to be one year old. All prophecies are born somewhere, so Elmandr1, your statement is, as Vegas put it, incorrect at best. Even if they come from some sort of God, or some cool person who for one reason or another has the ability to prophesy, they are born at some point. There is no reason they couldn't have been created recently.

Now, when a prophecy is kind of a legend, it tends to mean that it is older. That doesn't mean that it's been around since the beginning of time. In fact, in a society where history isn't always recorded and distribution of such things is nearly non-existent due to lack of printing, I can see a prophecy becoming legend in as short a time frame as 100 years. Granted, I think they are older.

Third, while it may be most likely that the prophecies really are prophecies from a credible source, this isn't always the case. One of the best books I ever read wasthis way. The main characters spent the whole series fulfilling a set of prophecies, then found out that another character had made them up about a hundred years previously. It was pretty nifty, the way it all worked out in the end. 

So, long story short, we really can't make statements like, "the prophecies have been around since the beginning of time," because we don't really know anything about the prophecies.

[/annoyance][/rantage]

And now happyman went and posted while I was typing, rendering about half of this post useless. Oh well.

Elmandr1, please don't take offense at all of us being somewhat annoyed. We don't think that your theories are wrong. We just don't know enough to prove or disprove them. We do appreciate that you add to the discussion. We just ask that you don't act like your theories are the only possible course because their possible.

That said, please do continue posting, You seem to be an intelligent person, which I appreciate greatly. Their in short supply, these days. Just please don't be so defensive of your theories when we say that we think it's possible but we don't really believe them.

 

The Thread was becoming a little wan...decided i'd start stabbing at you guys--provoke some intice and worthwhile debates...

No, my thoeries are just that--theories.

I have very little proof, and (since i have reread the books over three times now) the only other evidence i will have will come on the 14th. And by then, it won't matter what i think--except to all you guys who will start to call me "Sir" .

Its Just a gut feeling. I know happy man, i shouldn't be so defensive, and talk so surely about something based on weak evidence...but somebody has to do it.

In reply to the prophecy statements you guys have made. Andrew, i don't think that prophecies actually ever came to be on there own...

I study mythology and the two most significant catalysts for a prophecy or myth are a:) and wide ranging, historical event (whether it be a plague, war, oppression, etc...) or b:) the myths and prophecies of another race go through what is essentially known as "the melting pot." This meaning that the prophecies as they are being accepted and taken into another life style of another culture/race go through a change....and thus becomes an independent prophecy or myth.

Other than that i can't recall a myth or prophecy that was born on its own entirely...thats all im saying.

Another thing, I agree that a prophecy or myth can develop within a hundred years (heck, a man's life can become a legend before he dies--ask Kvouthe (Main character in The Name of the Wind.)) However something needs to trigger that development...

but when people say that the world was in complete bliss--why then would a prophecy be needed? The Terris they had already had these religions for years before TLR was born...

This is just me seeing the inconsistencies when looking at what we know with a LOGICAL perspectives (this really is all the evidence i have--this is essentially where my theories are derived to answer your question happyman.)

Andrew, I'd like your opinion, based on what you know and what is insinuated through out the story, for how long before TLR do you predict the prophecies were apart of the Terris culture?

I ask this because, if you say a year or if you say a million (it doesn't matter), don't you think that atleast one or two people might have claimed that the were Messia--oop--i mean HOA before Alendi came??

And since TLR (supposedly) wasn't the HOA, couldn't there have been other wrong holders of the power??

It just makes sense if you think about the sociological patterns in humans, and the recurrent events in religious history...

But i could be wrong, thats for sure, i could definitely be wrong.

[Andrew the Great]

I personally give the prophecies about 500 years. But the doesn't really matter.

And I also suppose it's entirely possible that there are previous heroes of ages. I just think that it is likely that some sort of legend of them would have been passed on to today. But again, it is possible.

And I'm not sure about whether the power at the well is the deciding factor in what makes a Hero of Ages.

[Elmandr]

I personally give the prophecies about 500 years. But the doesn't really matter.

And I also suppose it's entirely possible that there are previous heroes of ages. I just think that it is likely that some sort of legend of them would have been passed on to today. But again, it is possible.

And I'm not sure about whether the power at the well is the deciding factor in what makes a Hero of Ages.

Me neither--October 14th needs to hurry up and get here.

[GreenMonsta]

Ok then does any one have anything on deck for tomorrow?

[Wielder]

I personally give the prophecies about 500 years. But the doesn't really matter.

And I also suppose it's entirely possible that there are previous heroes of ages. I just think that it is likely that some sort of legend of them would have been passed on to today. But again, it is possible.

And I'm not sure about whether the power at the well is the deciding factor in what makes a Hero of Ages.

I highly doubt the Terris prophecies are only 500 years old for a single reason: it would throw every single thing Kwaan has written on metal off.  It had been a thousand years since the time of Alendi and I was under the impression that the prophecies are what first led Kwaan to assume he was the HoA. 

Maybe it's just me.

It just occurred to me; what if the world should have ended thousands of years ago, and (like in Alcatraz) has been arriving late to it's own death through the Heroes of Ages?

I really like this idea.  Def. a possibility. 

[happyman]

I personally give the prophecies about 500 years. But the doesn't really matter.

And I also suppose it's entirely possible that there are previous heroes of ages. I just think that it is likely that some sort of legend of them would have been passed on to today. But again, it is possible.

And I'm not sure about whether the power at the well is the deciding factor in what makes a Hero of Ages.

I highly doubt the Terris prophecies are only 500 years old for a single reason: it would throw every single thing Kwaan has written on metal off.  It had been a thousand years since the time of Alendi and I was under the impression that the prophecies are what first led Kwaan to assume he was the HoA. 

I read the statements as:  500 years old when Kwaan and Alendi lived.

Andrew, i don't think that prophecies actually ever came to be on there own...

I study mythology and the two most significant catalysts for a prophecy or myth are a:) and wide ranging, historical event (whether it be a plague, war, oppression, etc...) or b:) the myths and prophecies of another race go through what is essentially known as "the melting pot." This meaning that the prophecies as they are being accepted and taken into another life style of another culture/race go through a change....and thus becomes an independent prophecy or myth.

Other than that i can't recall a myth or prophecy that was born on its own entirely...thats all im saying.

In a fantasy world, it would be a very bad idea to outlaw c:) a legitimate power (human, god, whatever) was able to see the need in the future and created the prophecies to help people deal with it.

Of course, Brandon may not go with this.  He's already played fast and loose with the "perfect prophecy" trope by having Ruin mess with them.

but when people say that the world was in complete bliss--why then would a prophecy be needed? The Terris they had already had these religions for years before TLR was born...

One possible answer is right there in your own statement of where myths might come from (barring being real).  If the deepness (or Ruin) was really a threat at some point in the past, but one that had been successfully overcome without leaving the world a shell of itselfmaybe by using the power at the well in the past, then a world which is "normal," (wars and some destruction, yes, but also flowers and green plants and a yellow sun) would be a perfectly normal result.  People would remember the danger (distantly) and the enormous source of power required to fix it, but for the most part life would be as healthy as it normally can be.  Hence the religion exists naturally, and there is not contradiction with what is known from the books.

This is only one possible answer.  There are others, including the notion that the world really is only 2000 years old and the power has only shown up twice!  The prophecies would presumably then come from what people learned right after the creation---however that happened.  Again, this is purely speculation.

[Elmandr]

One possible answer is right there in your own statement of where myths might come from (barring being real).  If the deepness (or Ruin) was really a threat at some point in the past, but one that had been successfully overcome without leaving the world a shell of itselfmaybe by using the power at the well in the past, then a world which is "normal," (wars and some destruction, yes, but also flowers and green plants and a yellow sun) would be a perfectly normal result.  People would remember the danger (distantly) and the enormous source of power required to fix it, but for the most part life would be as healthy as it normally can be.  Hence the religion exists naturally, and there is not contradiction with what is known from the books.

Okay, lets say they (Terris of the past) successfully sealed away Ruin...that doesn't mean the prophecy was thrown out...it is a sacred writing--the logically thing and probably the most human would be to try and preserve the scriptures....don't you agree?

Two thousand years? Im not sure, Brandon seems like he can see farther into the world than that...but then again, i could be wrong, i could definitely be wrong.


1,000 years= the refilling of the well, and, consequently the HOA.

so, whenever the earliest forms of the prophecies began, count each thousand years as one hoa, and thats how many Past HOA you have within the mist spirit...

i say atleast ten. Including Rashek. , yes, although he wasn't really appreciated i think he played a significant role in the prophecy--he stalled the destruction of the world long enough for Vin to come along and save it. So he has his place.

Two biggest clues in the book that may prove the Mist Spirit=past HOA are:

1.) When Vin uses the mist to destroy TLR.

2.) the mist spirit only appearing post TLR and when the world was...HOA--less, if you will.

[CthulhuKefka]

What I'm really interested in is what the prophecy ACTUALLY says, without all its Ruin-"enhanced" upgrades. 

[Qarlin]

New Subject!

Why does the mist kill some people, shake and make others sick, and leave some completely alone?

...the mists, which could be Preservation, depending on the kind of people the mists killed. Brandon does say in his annotations (Chapter 15)

Mostly, I'm showing the real danger of the mists--that there IS indeed a reason to fear them. Either way, remember one thing from this chapter. Some people were killed (and there's a connection between the two people you've heard described specifically as dying from the mists) some people got away, and some people had seizures, but then were all right later.

Which two people were "Old Jed," described as being a "hard worker" (pg 42). The other was "Old Jell" who was "Bullheaded" (pg 141). More thoughts on that?

[Chaos]

I think I'll take this straight from the source.

This title was fairly easy to choose. Actually, the titles of all three books were easy to choose. I originally toyed with calling the Hero of Ages the Final Hero. So, because of that, I was tempted to come up with a "final" title to use for book two.

However, I quickly decided that I liked Hero of Ages instead of Final Hero (you'll see why in Book Three.) So, way back as far as the first chapters of book one, I was planning book two to be named the Well of Ascension.

Not "Final Hero", "Hero of Ages". I cannot help but think that there must be more than one Age for that term to apply. We know two of them for certain: Alendi/Rashek/Kwaan's age with Rashek's Ascension, along with the age of the Final Empire with Vin's Ascension. Oh, I guess if we measure "ages" as points where people have gone to the Well of Ascension to use its power (it fills up every thousand years, and I would assume the only way to remove whatever it is "filled" with is for someone to use it) then MB3 actually would begin the third age we explicitly know about, since the Well's power was utilized.

There could be more ages than that. Or, conversely, maybe the original prophecies were referring to the fact that it took two (or three) ages for the prophecies to be fulfilled. We don't know.

There could be more ages, that's all. Somehow, I believe it's all tied to the Well itself. Where did it come from? Why does it fill up every thousand years? Does it really fill up every thousand years, or is that just a myth that Ruin manipulated? What is the Well filled with, and where does the Power come from? How does it get filled by "well-liquid", is it just spontaneous? Those are all very key questions I've wondered about. I hope they get answered, and I think they will. If the Well marks Ages, then to understand what the Hero of Ages really is, we would need to know how it is directly related to the Well, without manipulation.


Also, it does nothing to explain how Ruin was imprisoned there the first place. That's pretty vital.

Another thing I would like to mention once again regards the creation of the Prophecies. Ruin didn't create them, I am certain. He's the force of chaos and destruction, and while he shows the capability to manipulate very craftily, I doubt a force of destruction would create the Prophecies themselves. If he did, he wouldn't have any need to manipulate them in the first place.

That being said, they came from somewhere, definitely before Alendi. I have a potential theory, but it's completely unbased in fact: Perhaps whoever sealed Ruin in the Well to begin with created the Prophecies for some purpose, perhaps to make sure Ruin wasn't freed. Of course, that doesn't make sense because the Prophecies would try to move a potential Hero away from the Well, rather than have that whole temptation to free Ruin. But, I warned you that it was unbased in fact, so it's not a very good theory. Maybe this One Guy who sealed Ruin originally made the prophecies for some other end which we have no idea what it is.

Which leads me to speak of elmandr's HOA theory. Elmandr, you're awesome, but I have always hated this theory, though I tried to minimize comments on it because I could not identify what was the problem. However, I have found the problem.

If Ruin had not manipulated the Prophecies--this manipulation, most or all of it, must've come in Kwaan's time to notice a difference--the correct path would presumably be apparent. If the correct path was to merge with the souls of all the previous Heroes of Ages, then why are the previous Heroes failing all the time? Ruin's not manipulating them (to our knowledge. I'll readily give you the fact that Kwaan doesn't seem to certain about the end, either), so they would not be compelled to fail all the time and choose the supposedly "wrong" option. The Prophecies, I believe, are directed towards defeating the Deepness, which would link the Prophecies to the mists and all the like. However, "defeating" the Deepness was obfuscated by Ruin to change it so "defeating" it would in fact, set it free instead.

In fact, I believe this gives credence to my theory that the Prophecies were created by the One Guy who sealed Ruin inside the Well to begin with. Perhaps the One Guy ascended and similarly to Rashek, realized he made the wrong option. He then created the Prophecies to point people to the real way to defeat the Deepness/Ruin, and unfortunately, Ruin confused that whole thing.

...Interestingly enough, perhaps the Lord Ruler made his own set of "prophecies" about what should have happened in the next Ascension. Maybe that's how they solve the problem. Anyways, I'm going off on tangents.

Elmandr, the correct path to defeat the Hero, in my opinion, would not have a bunch of other Heroes fail and then you merge with all the failures. That's way too convoluted. I find it so incredibly unlikely that a prophecy would say "Fail, then wait many iterations to Succeed." It doesn't make sense! Plus, there is no evidence in the world of Mistborn that even suggests the existence of a soul, or even the mention of an afterlife to begin with. The only thing is the mist spirit itself.

Your theory has the key problem where you have no idea how it operates. How does the Lord Ruler's soul get inside the mist spirit? Isn't that sort of like merging with the mist spirit, which from what I gather, is what you believe that the real Hero should do? It does nothing to explain the existence of the Prophecies--in fact, it seems to completely reject the Prophecies, which I believed was one of the key conflicts in Mistborn: the Keepers finding the Prophecies, and now, finding what the Prophecies really were. That conflict will be resolved. It must be! I refuse to believe that the Prophecies were outright and complete lies, because as I said above, someone had to make them.

In review, the theory is not logical but rather random speculation. I'm not being mean, but it really makes not a darn bit of sense on any level except that it "could" be a solution. But, it doesn't say how that would really help defeating the Deepness.

Two biggest clues in the book that may prove the Mist Spirit=past HOA are:

1.) When Vin uses the mist to destroy TLR.

2.) the mist spirit only appearing post TLR and when the world was...HOA--less, if you will.

Burning Allomancy does not prove anything about previous Heroes. In fact, we have no idea whether Vin is the hero of not. The mist spirit does not appear with the Lord Ruler, but neither does the Deepness. It makes much more sense that whatever the Lord Ruler did to keep Ruin at bay caused both constructs of the mists out of use. Plus, if the mist spirit had the spirits of all the other Heroes, then it wouldn't matter if the world was "Hero-less", because there are a bunch of Heroes inside the mist spirit. Unless you can explain that one to me rationally...

So. The evidence has been refuted and the logic does not make sense on any level. I'd love to hear your response, though. To be honest, elmandr, this was a lot like your Feruchemy theory that you told me over IM, and I disproved every bit of evidence you had for it and showed you why it didn't make any sense. You relented

Phew. That was one hell of a rant. I'm sorry if it came off mean, but I endlessly search for logic... and yours had none.

Ok then does any one have anything on deck for tomorrow?

Well, hot damn, my post alone gives me two ideas to discuss, and earlier I came up with another equally good topic. I shall list all three here, but let's not say our opinions on all three at once. One day at a time for each of the three theories. We don't need more tangents, especially considering I know elmandr will protest to my criticism of his theory

Okay, the three theories I have related to: 1. The Well, 2. The Hero of Ages, and 3. Preservation. The first two I already spelled out, the third one I didn't

1. The Well. To quote myself above:  "There could be more ages, that's all. Somehow, I believe it's all tied to the Well itself. Where did it come from? Why does it fill up every thousand years? Does it really fill up every thousand years, or is that just a myth that Ruin manipulated? What is the Well filled with, and where does the Power come from? How does it get filled by "well-liquid", is it just spontaneous? Those are all very key questions I've wondered about. I hope they get answered, and I think they will. If the Well marks Ages, then to understand what the Hero of Ages really is, we would need to know how it is directly related to the Well, without manipulation."

2. The Origin of the Hero of Ages + Discovering what to really do as the Hero. I'm not going to copy and paste this one, but my thought is that a "One Guy" sealed Ruin in the Well in the Age previous to Alendi/Kwaan/Rashek's. Somebody did, and it appears that neither Ruin nor Preservation can get the upper hand without some sort of other being (hence all the controlling and manipulation, I think), so naming this theoretical person One Guy is as good as anyone else. Somehow by utilizing the Well's millennial power, methinks, the One Guy sealed Ruin away, but he realized that that did not permanently defeat Ruin, and then, there would be the Deepness once again. The One Guy created the Prophecies in order to show a future someone what the true path to defeating the Deepness would be.

Furthermore, this could perhaps parallel the clues the Lord Ruler left behind, as the Amazon.com description for MB3 states. The Lord Ruler could realize he has done it wrong... then tried to make some effort to do it right the next time the Well was full.

Heck, this could even mean than any failed person who "Ascended" could reinvent the Prophecies every age. Or something.

3. Preservation. This theory is very under-developed, but here goes anyways. Two quotes to nibble on first:

With this book, I don't want people to assume an immediate time period or culture for this world. In realty, I've stolen from all over the place. My hope is that I'll be able to destroy people's conceptions quickly, then instead build my own world in their mind.

So, here we have a land where the sun is red, ash falls from the sky, mists come upon the land at night, and plants are brown rather than green. In addition, we have a slave population who live like very rural peasants--but, at the same time, Lord Tresting checks his pocket watch in the first scene. Later on, you'll see gothic cathedrals mixing with people in near-modern clothing. It's all just part of the image I'm trying to create--a place that isn't set in any particular time. In fact, it's a little bit frozen in time, as you'll find in later books.

Frozen in time. Okay, and...

It was free--Marsh could still feel it exulting in that--but something kept it from affecting the world too much by itself. An opposition. A force that lay over the land like a shield.

It was not yet complete. It needed more. Something else. . .something hidden. And Marsh would find that something, bring it to his master.

So the completely undeveloped theory here is that the Lord Ruler froze the world somehow in time, most likely by releasing/utilizing Preservation to accomplish such a goal. Frozen, neither Ruin or Preservation could manipulate the mists. Or something.

I included the second quote just because I'm sure it's referring to what is Preservation. "A force that lay over the land like a shield." That's important somehow.

-----------

Okay, there it is. I would start with the Well one, but you can pick whichever you'd like, because I think they are all very good things to discuss.

EDIT: Curse you, Qarlin, and curse my typing speed for being too slow! Well... that's just another theory to add to our queue. That makes four more to discuss! Let's make these discussions awesome!

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Chaos is back, baby.

[Chaos]

Chaos is back, baby.

Darn right. It was too long since I posted one of those long topics. These things... they just come to me. I hope I am somewhat on base here.

Also, I suggest we go with Qarlin's topic first, because he posted it first. It's only fair.

I, however, will not respond to that one right now. I've written a lot today.