Author Topic: Seven years later...  (Read 12722 times)

Archon

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2008, 04:59:53 AM »
We don't remember the names of those killed by serial killers because they aren't remarkable in any way. Unfortunately, people dying is not uncommon. Serial killers, on the other hand, are remembered because they are disturbing, not because they are sympathetic. They aren't remembered because people feel bad for them, they are remembered because people are horrified by them.

Yes, everybody makes choices, and they are ultimately responsible for the results of their actions. However, as previously mentioned, not everybody has the same conception of morality. If you ask most people, they will say that stealing is wrong. However, if you ask people if it is wrong to steal when that is the only way you can provide food for your family, then the answers aren't so clear. That's when people start to realize that if they were in the same situation, they might not do any different than the people they judge.

Kant had some interesting beliefs on morality. He believed, for instance, that if something was wrong in one instance, then it was wrong in all instances, i.e. if killing is wrong in one instance, then it is wrong in all instances. I think that we can prove that that, in and of itself, does not fit most people's moral compasses. For example...
Situation A: I decide, for one reason or another, that I don't like one of my acquaintances. So, I go out and kill them.
Situation B: I am walking home one night, when I see that an old lady is being attacked by someone with a knife. I rush to defend them, and the attacker and I struggle over the knife. In the struggle, I stab the assailant and he dies. Now, I have just saved this presumably innocent person's life. I was also in grave personal danger when I killed the assailant. However, I did kill someone.
Now, according to Kant, these two situations both should be immoral, because killing is wrong. But how many people would say that it would be more moral for me to stand by and watch as the old lady was killed?
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2008, 06:05:06 AM »
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Yeah, okay, the idea behind anarchism is great. Wonderful. Impossible to move into from here. How about instead of daydreaming about an ideal system, we work more on improving the system we have. A complete overhaul of our, or any established power, would likely cause a major collapse of society (even a loose society like your ideal one). Even over generations, it works better if we have ideas in mind for changing this system, in the hopes that maybe someday it will be changed enough that an overhaul isn't impossible--and in hopes that we'll have worked out bugs in this and any "ideal" system over the time that we're making small changes.
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I agree completely that we must have ideas as to how we would like to change the way society is organized.  I agree that we must work to improve the world we live in.  We are not talking simply about a political revolution we are talking about a complete social revolution, and for that we can only lay the groundwork.  By designing better ways to organize society and being prepared to put that theory into effect lays that groundwork.  Social revolutions are organic and can not be planned or architects.  You just never know when or what the spark will be that will start it.  The Paris Commune of the 60's, or the CNT in Catalonia during the Spanish Revolution.  If you want to learn about a close approximation of an Anarchist society look at the CNT.  Of course, the Fascists and the Republicans destroyed it before resuming their war.  But there is alot of things you can do now that work well.  Things like community gardens, which get people out of their houses and away from the t.v.  People build stronger ties to their neighbors and the community through activities like that.  

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There needs to be someone with some amount of impartiality who can make a decision when others are at an impasse.
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  A group is more than welcome to set up along the lines of having a team leader, if they are trying to achieve a common goal.  Some form of authority is needed, but it must be justified.  No matter the justification, but that it is justified in the mind of the one that falls under that authority.  Of course, the person has the right to terminate that authority at any time.  When a mother stops their child from running into the street.  That is a form of authority, but it is justified.  If I want a house designed I will defer authority to an architect.  Obviously, I would or could have imput as to what I want, but what I want may not be possible.  And I could terminate that relationship at my discretion.    


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And while I would agree with the morality issue, to a point.  Every thing we do or don't, is always a choice.  Good or bad, that individual made a choice to commit a crime or do a good deed, inspite or because of the consequences.  All to often there is more attention/pity attributed to the victimizer rather than the victim.  How many remember the names of those murdered by serial killers?
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The reason the serial killer's name is remembered is because violence is almost worshiped.  It is big news.  What is the first thing you see on your local news?  It is always some violent crime.  They glorify it to some extent.  Serial Killer's have become celebrities, they have freaking trading cards.  So, because that person made a bad choice we are going to lock him up, in which he is treated like a sub-human and will continue to alienate\harden the person to where he can be potentially more of a threat.  Instead of perhaps taking the opportunity to teach the person the effects of those choices.  Making the person have to sit down and listen to what the victim went through.  Make the person have to associate a person, someones mother, or father, son or daughter.  Make some common ground, create understanding between the victim and the victimizer.  I know it sounds all hugs and kisses but it works.  The victims of the crime get just as much out of it as the victimizer most of the time.  They get a better sense of closure in most cases.  Lets work on true justice, lets look toward rehabilitation.  Don't just throw them away.  The recidivism rate from people that go through restorative justice programs are amazingly better than just sending someone to a small cell for a length of time.  Fyodor Dostoevsky once said, "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."  
  

  The moral compass is something that is a learned behavior, in my opinion.  You do not see a lot of college grads carjacking people, or robbing a 7/11.  The thing a college degree shows is a level of intelligence, the height of that intelligence is debatable.  Of course, it could also show that they are better at standardized tests.  The causes of crime are not that hard to identify.  Little or no parental guidance while growing up, lack of positive role-models, poverty, and poor education.  It is unbelievable, and atrocious that something close to 50% of the students that enter the Kansas City School district do not graduate, and of those graduates some can not even read.  That is not only an indictment of the edcational system in this city but of the lack of support and importance placed on education in the home.  When i say lack of support, I don't just mean welfare moms, but single parent mom's who have to work two jobs to provide the necessities and therefore not around to provide the guidance needed.  I have been catching slack for saying that society is all to blame, which was not the message i was trying to send, but simply placing the blame on the person is putting your head in the sand to the problems of this society.  


GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2008, 07:19:50 AM »
I never said that people don't have a choice.  Some people don't have a moral compass to aid in making that choice, though.
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Necroben

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2008, 03:00:44 AM »
Yeah, I agree that bad news sells.  Nevertheless, we as consumers buy the news they sell us.  We as a society have glorified death and murder to the extent of saying its o.k.

That being said, I don't have pity for those who break the law.  Nor do I see the need to coddle them.  If someone does not have a moral compass, or more simply, know right from wrong, get rid of them.  Jailing them does not seem to work... so step up the rate of executions.  It could be seen as cruel and unusually but if it's done more often, it won’t be so unusual.

While my opinions may seem cruel, there are countries with a much lower crime rate and higher poverty ratio than ours.  Point blank, eye-for-an-eye works.
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2008, 05:28:14 PM »
Renkar, do you really believe you can teach a Serial Killer right from wrong?  That is not the best example, by far.  Psycopaths and Sociopaths are sick people.  They are mentally ill, and until a cure for whatever causes it can be found, they can not be allowed back into society.  There are people who will deify anyone or anything, so it is not surprising they have fans.  It is ironic that there would be no way to stop this behavior from happening in an Anarchist society, as it would be their "right" to  know everything about serial killers and accept them as role models. That poses an interesting question: How would you deal with those who are unable or unwilling to control themselves, and are a clear danger to others?

Miyabi - Your posts  sound a little sef-serving to me.  The essence of laws is to protect people, sometimes even from themselves.  Exactly what "Rights" do we have that you feel have been wrongly taken from us?  Should we wait until someone violates another's rights before we remove that person's rights?  How long are they restricted?  Do you really have a right to do or say whatever you want?  Laws also prevent people from using ignorance as an excuse.  If you don't define what is right and wrong, how can you then hold someone accountable?  Being anti-government is a cheap way out, in my opinion.  Anything that involves human beings is going to be flawed.  The trick is to be aware of those flaws, and determine ways to change or improve leadership and government, not just villify it and wash your hands of it.  Nobody is totally free.  If you believe it is possible, you are fooling yourself.  We are all bound by limitations. 

I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2008, 06:16:39 PM »
Yeah, I agree that bad news sells.  Nevertheless, we as consumers buy the news they sell us.  We as a society have glorified death and murder to the extent of saying its o.k.

That being said, I don't have pity for those who break the law.  Nor do I see the need to coddle them.  If someone does not have a moral compass, or more simply, know right from wrong, get rid of them.  Jailing them does not seem to work... so step up the rate of executions.  It could be seen as cruel and unusually but if it's done more often, it won’t be so unusual.

While my opinions may seem cruel, there are countries with a much lower crime rate and higher poverty ratio than ours.  Point blank, eye-for-an-eye works.


what about all those in jail for white collar crimes? what about all those in prison on ramped up drug charges?  Do we want to chop off the hand of the thief, perhaps take the tongue if they perjure themselves.  How about an ear for things like slander or libel?  We can stick people in solitary for their entire term of incarceration, they will only go crazy at some point.  we could go back to drawing and quartering in the public square.  It would be fun to go to your local bar and see someone's arm hanging above the door because some criminal was known to hang out there.  Perhaps instead of Monday Night Football, we can have Monday Night Execution, that would make everyone in world afraid.  Making things more draconian will not prevent crime, when the root causes of crime are still prevalent in our society.  Those countries with more poverty and lower crime rates, would you want to live under that regime?  Without knowing of which countries you speak, I can only guess that most of those are more openly oppressive than this country.  I am sure there are exceptions that you can cherry pick from.  

The use of the death penalty is antiquated and does not work.  It works to kill the poor, because if you can afford Johnny Cochrane and F. Lee Bailey you can beat a murder charge, or at the least keep the death penalty off the table.  There is a reason that we are the only "civilized" country that still permits the death penalty, and it is not because we are better than everyone else.

  Yes, we as a society have made murder okay through a whole host of ways.  State sanctioned killing is one way that we justify murder.  The glorification of the serial killer, the constant bombardment of  violent imagery, are just a few other ways.  Eye for an eye doesn't work, oh it may work on that individual, but as a chilling effect on the community at large, not so much.  The Death  Penalty has been in effect for a little over three decades since the Supremes re-instated it.  The murder rate in this country is just as high, but the Death penalty works.  I used to think that the more frequent use of the DP would work to prevent people from committing crimes like murder etc.  but the thought that hey, if I do this I could be put to death doesn't truly play in the minds of most.  They don't plan on getting caught, they may not truly care if they live or die, they may not be that intelligent to form the thought are some reasons.  The DP is disproportionally used on the poor and non-whites.  The government should beheld to a higher standard than its citizenry.  The whole do as I say not as I do reasoning is flawed.
  
  If you ever find yourself on the wrong side of the law, I hope for your sake someone will take pity on you.  Remember they are making new crimes daily, and this is one of the few growth industries in this country.  People make mistakes, people screw up, to err is human as they say.

Darx-

  There are a lot of people out there that need psychiatric help.  Perhaps instead of just sending them to the chair or the chamber we can learn somethings from them.  They are sick people, like you said, and we need to find the cure for such illness.  We must also define the causes of such illnesses.  I don't believe that anyone is a natural born killer, they may be predisposed to such behavior, but environment also plays its role.  As to how those people are dealt with, it would be up to the community to determine that.  I would argue though that in a society as I propose that many of the current ills of society would be removed.  That when raised in a society where mutual aid is the focus, where the necessities  of survival are provided through the organization of the community simply for being part of the community that a lot of the thought processes that lead to criminal activity would cease to exist.  It is hard to imagine such a society, I know, that is why it would not work if tomorrow the government said alright we are out of the business figure it out for yourself.  Not enough people think along anarchist lines, or do not bring those thoughts far enough.  Things would collapse because some people would need to be in charge, it is what has been taught, they need to be rule.  I do not want to be ruled, therefore I do not want to rule. 

darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2008, 09:35:04 PM »
I agree they should be studied, but I think the death penalty is warranted for certain individuals.  There are those select few out there who are so dangerous to society that the chance of them even interacting with others can't be chanced. 

As much as you have admitted many of your clients are guilty, you still seem to hold to the fact that so many people are wrongfully accused.  As much as it sucks that people are sometimes framed or poorly defended, or are folly for an overzealous DA looking for re-election, most criminals are guilty, and consequences should be metered out.  Like it or not, consequences for actions mitigate those actions.  I think the bigger problem is a culture that encourages not being educated, not taking responsibility for your own actions, and putting yourself first.  What you call results of our societal issues I call causes.
 You mentioned Fascists and Republicans, what about liberals?  Isn't the current Democratic philosophy in direct odds with everything you believe in?

It is the people's fault that violence is sensationalized.  It is the people's fault that the economy is in shambles right now.  It is our fault.  In fact, the current banking situation is another glaring issue with unified thought and mutual understanding running the country instead of a  government.  Regulations were decreased to encourage profit and allow more people to own a home, and what happened?  GREED.  People knew they couldn't afford that 400,000 home, no matter what the mortgage company approved them for.  Yet they bought it, because they just couldn't wait.  They were too blinded by the shine to see the crap under the thin coat of paint.  On the other side, these companies knew they were playing with fire, but just couldn't stop giving out those loans.   Now sure, you can argue that we are brought up to overvalue money and possessions, and you may be right about that.  You don't want to see it, but the lengths even your version of society would go to in the name of preservation would be no better than any other governmental structure.  As new generations came, they would not have the same faith, and would naturally look to separate themselves from the herd.  We are part of nature, and what separates us from animals rests on the point of a pin.  You will always, always, always have people who are willing to buck the system, to separate themselves from the herd.  The strongest and most dominant keep the species going.  It will take a lot more than a few untested ideals and even 100 generations to remove that base instinct from humanity.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Necroben

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2008, 04:11:01 AM »
If you ever find yourself on the wrong side of the law, I hope for your sake someone will take pity on you.  Remember they are making new crimes daily, and this is one of the few growth industries in this country.  People make mistakes, people screw up, to err is human as they say.

Actions are choices.  If I'm on the wrong side of the law, I deserve what I get.  In the wrong place at the wrong time?  I don't go there.  It's all my choice.  I agree that executions should not be televised.  Catering to the Mob helped Rome fall from within by encouraging depravity and lawlessness.  Nevertheless, any time you get three or more people together your going to have crime of one sort or another.  It's the way humans are unfortunately.
I don't suffer from insanity...  I enjoy every minuet of it!

It's ok to be strange, as long as it's on paper. :)