Author Topic: Seven years later...  (Read 12719 times)

Comfortable Madness

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2008, 04:14:52 PM »
Renkar,

Your idea of an ancharist society that works is an absoulute fairy tale. The "hierarchical forms of society" are not beneficial but they are absolutely necessary. This is as sad as it is true. You're blaming the the system for creating monsters. Human beings are naturally monsters and need no outside assitance to act accordingly. Ah yes it's great to dream of a world where anarchy could be peaceful but it is only a DREAM. Taking away personal responsibility and laying it on the "system" only adds to the problem. Yes the jails are overcrowded and that is because there are simply too many people incapable of living peacefully. That is not a problem of the "system" it is a problem of humanity.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2008, 04:20:14 PM »
The point of anarchism isn't a unified peace.  It's a unified understanding that you don't have the right to take away the rights of any other individual.  Which governments do every single day.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2008, 04:26:59 PM »
Yes but with anarchy who defines the rights? Wouldn't there be a lack there of rights? I mean there wouldn't be a centralized government to outline these rights.
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2008, 04:39:11 PM »
Agreed.  There would also be no way to prevent people from deciding their rights superceded the rights of others.  Should we have the right to take something we want from someone else, just because we want it?  What about the right to live wherever we want, even if it means destroying ecosystems?  What about the right to keep what you have earned, even if it is more than other people think you need? Here's the best one: What if a group of people feel it is their right to have a government to ensure they're freedoms are protected?  Who makes that choice?  Who weighs the consequences of actions?  Most importantly, who enforces the one law that your interpretation of Anarchy suggests?  I see no way to have a community where the good of the one always outweighs the good of the many.
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2008, 04:51:36 PM »
Darx-

  No not all my clients are innocent, very few of them are.  In some sense they are victims.  Victims of losing the genetic lottery, victims of a system that has forgotten and used them.  Used them in the sense that they are a metaphorical stick for the rest of society.  I think victims of crimes are made doubly so by the system.  The studies on restorative justice out there are really eye opening.  Instead of just throwing people in jail\prison, which requires little responsibility be taken by the criminal, they require that person to talk with the victims of their actions, to work toward making that person whole.  It creates understanding about the consequences of their actions etc.  If you want I can put together a few things to pass along, but it may take some time, might be quicker to do a google search.  I don't think that society is the cause of all of our problems.  I just think that the society\culture that we are creating is the wrong exit ramp in human development.  That society as it is now is more hinderance, then helpful in most senses.  The more anarchistic qualities and values a society possesses the more free those societies are.  

  I do not speak highly of law enforcement solely because I disagree with the position they hold in society.  The whole thin blue line idea. Whenever you take a group of people and set them apart as enforcers it will create an air of superiority, of entitlement.  I see this everyday when speaking with officers.  I have a fairly decent relationship with most officers that I deal with, but they still hold positions of authority and hierarchy which as an anarchist I don't agree with.    

  I to believe that people need to take more responsibility for their actions.  Everyone, from the President of this country all the way down to the bum on the street, but if you think that everyone is where they are is the result of only their doing is flawed also.  I don't think you think this judging from the entirety of our conversion.  This is the whole nature v. nurture debate that has been going on for centuries.  I think nature definitely has a major factor in the development of a person.  I think that that nature is becoming more intrusive and more destructive as human society develops.  It may not be a conscious decision or it may not, but we are constantly bombarded with image to consume to perpetuate the economic system.  Like I have said production and consumption solely for their own sake is not a good thing.  We need to take responsibility about the fact that our actions on this planet do have consequences, that dumping chemicals into the rivers and streams of this world are not good things.  That CO2 in the atmosphere is at its highest it have ever been in the long history of this planet is not a good thing.  That all the things we throw away just don't disappear.  We need to take responsibility for the fact that we are selling our futures for the convenience of today.  The whole save the planet campaign is misguided to some extent.  It should be save the humans, the planet will be fine, it has been fine for 100,000's of years, and will continue for billions of years more, unless cleared for an intergalactic superspace highway or blown up.  

  A lot of the problems we face are interconnected, but people refuse to connect the dots in most instances.  They will connect one or two, but the whole picture is rarely viewed.  The whole can't see the forest for the trees mentality.  Society has evolved to help and keep people from connecting to many dots.  Whether that is by conscious effort or simply by dumb luck is up to your own beliefs.  Read Guy Debord's The Society of Spectacle.

Skar-

  I will IM you with my questions about your service once I piece them together.  Take your time, when you get to them you get to them.

  Thank you for seeing through my ramblings to the core of what I am saying.  I too battled long and hard with that lack of faith.  Humanity as a whole being to primitive, human nature being to violent etc.  Looking at it not as a movement but an evolution of humanity as a whole of the course of this existence on the planet helps a little.  Realizing that I will likely never see the world I believe in also helped.  I must just work to bring humanity closer to that ideal, one begrudging step at a time.  I think human nature is not as horrid  as the picture of the world at this time suggests.  Again looking at it with a longer eye, humanity has constantly moved toward a freer society and i think that is the biggest part of human nature.  We live under very coercive elements that can warp the view of human nature.  Again it comes down to changing paradigms, and the only way that is going to happen, other than some tragic man-made event that offs a great majority of human kind, is through education and as Kropotkin said propaganda of deed.  

  I think that capitalism is one of the great evils of the world.  It is a system of great exploitation.  I think that capitalism and democracy are not synonymous and that with capitalism you can not have democracy. I can go on ad nausem about it, but this is long enough, and I will just say we can agree to disagree on this point right now, and save that debate for a later day.

Yea, I know MASH was about Vietnam even though set in Korea

  As for experience, yes experience is the greatest eye-opening, mind expanding thing at work in the world.  My point, however bad I butchered it, is that Experiences color perception, it can work to narrow views.  Experience can cause prejudice.  The key is to strike a balance.  The realization that your experiences may cause your perception to be skewed, I believe leads to greater understanding and more mind expansion.  Does that make sense?  I hate navel gazing, but yet i watch far too much t.v. and get the same feeling.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 04:54:54 PM by Renkar »

Comfortable Madness

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2008, 04:57:25 PM »
Darx-

  No not all my clients are innocent, very few of them are.  In some sense they are victims.  Victims of losing the genetic lottery, victims of a system that has forgotten and used them.  Used them in the sense that they are a metaphorical stick for the rest of society.  I think victims of crimes are made doubly so by the system.  The studies on restorative justice out there are really eye opening.  Instead of just throwing people in jail\prison, which requires little responsibility be taken by the criminal, they require that person to talk with the victims of their actions, to work toward making that person whole.  It creates understanding about the consequences of their actions etc.  If you want I can put together a few things to pass along, but it may take some time, might be quicker to do a google search.  I don't think that society is the cause of all of our problems.  I just think that the society\culture that we are creating is the wrong exit ramp in human development.  That society as it is now is more hinderance, then helpful in most senses.  The more anarchistic qualities and values a society possesses the more free those societies are.  

  I do not speak highly of law enforcement solely because I disagree with the position they hold in society.  The whole thin blue line idea. Whenever you take a group of people and set them apart as enforcers it will create an air of superiority, of entitlement.  I see this everyday when speaking with officers.  I have a fairly decent relationship with most officers that I deal with, but they still hold positions of authority and hierarchy which as an anarchist I don't agree with.    

  I to believe that people need to take more responsibility for their actions.  Everyone, from the President of this country all the way down to the bum on the street, but if you think that everyone is where they are is the result of only their doing is flawed also.  I don't think you think this judging from the entirety of our conversion.  This is the whole nature v. nurture debate that has been going on for centuries.  I think nature definitely has a major factor in the development of a person.  I think that that nature is becoming more intrusive and more destructive as human society develops.  It may not be a conscious decision or it may not, but we are constantly bombarded with image to consume to perpetuate the economic system.  Like I have said production and consumption solely for their own sake is not a good thing.  We need to take responsibility about the fact that our actions on this planet do have consequences, that dumping chemicals into the rivers and streams of this world are not good things.  That CO2 in the atmosphere is at its highest it have ever been in the long history of this planet is not a good thing.  That all the things we throw away just don't disappear.  We need to take responsibility for the fact that we are selling our futures for the convenience of today.  The whole save the planet campaign is misguided to some extent.  It should be save the humans, the planet will be fine, it has been fine for 100,000's of years, and will continue for billions of years more, unless cleared for an intergalactic superspace highway or blown up.  







Seriously? They are the victims? Each and every human being is born with a moral compass. Everyone instinctively knows what is right and what is wrong. I don't care what genes you get. If you can't control yourself or your genes you don't deserve to live with the rest of humanity.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 05:01:26 PM by Comfortable Madness »
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2008, 05:07:58 PM »
Agreed.  There would also be no way to prevent people from deciding their rights superceded the rights of others.  Should we have the right to take something we want from someone else, just because we want it?  What about the right to live wherever we want, even if it means destroying ecosystems?  What about the right to keep what you have earned, even if it is more than other people think you need? Here's the best one: What if a group of people feel it is their right to have a government to ensure they're freedoms are protected?  Who makes that choice?  Who weighs the consequences of actions?  Most importantly, who enforces the one law that your interpretation of Anarchy suggests?  I see no way to have a community where the good of the one always outweighs the good of the many.

First sorry about the double post, but had to expand.

  No we should not have the right to take away something from someone else simply because we want it.  As for who decided the rights of the people.  well, the people do.  Anarchism is about voluntary federations, where the people have control of their daily lives, and they are the ones who order their society, not governments or corporations.  Governments do not protect people's freedoms, the people do.  Governments do not grant rights, like I said to grant means that it can be withdrawn.  Government only posses the power we are willing to cede to them, nothing more.  The good of the one does not outweigh the good of the many, because the good of the one is the good of the many.  My freedom is only as expansive as my neighbors, if they are restricted and I act in anyway to restrict that freedom, i am restricting my own freedom.  I'll be back with more, got to get some things done before the weekend.

I did not say they are the only victims, and I did not say they were not at fault for their actions, I am saying that it is not 100% their fault, that at some level we are all responsible
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 05:12:19 PM by Renkar »

Comfortable Madness

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2008, 05:12:54 PM »
Agreed.  There would also be no way to prevent people from deciding their rights superceded the rights of others.  Should we have the right to take something we want from someone else, just because we want it?  What about the right to live wherever we want, even if it means destroying ecosystems?  What about the right to keep what you have earned, even if it is more than other people think you need? Here's the best one: What if a group of people feel it is their right to have a government to ensure they're freedoms are protected?  Who makes that choice?  Who weighs the consequences of actions?  Most importantly, who enforces the one law that your interpretation of Anarchy suggests?  I see no way to have a community where the good of the one always outweighs the good of the many.










  No we should not have the right to take away something from someone else simply because we want it.  As for who decided the rights of the people.  well, the people do.  Anarchism is about voluntary federations, where the people have control of their daily lives, and they are the ones who order their society, not governments or corporations.  Governments do not protect people's freedoms, the people do.  Governments do not grant rights, like I said to grant means that it can be withdrawn.  Government only posses the power we are willing to cede to them, nothing more.  The good of the one does not outweigh the good of the many, because the good of the one is the good of the many.  My freedom is only as expansive as my neighbors, if they are restricted and I act in anyway to restrict that freedom, i am restricting my own freedom.  I'll be back with more, got to get some things done before the weekend

Just changing the word government to voluntary federations does not change the fact that it is still a form of government. Even you realize the need for some form of governing body.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2008, 06:35:28 PM »
Right on, Madness.  There needs to be someone with some amount of impartiality who can make a decision when others are at an impasse.  This also applies to the need of a leader.  Working for a good sized Corporation myself, I see how projects and goals go nowhere because everyone in the meeting is on equal footing, and don't all agree on a specific course of action.  They either refuse to accept another idea, or refuse to accept any ideas without coming up with a plan themselves.  In the end, someone needs the authority to make a decision so that the plan can move forward.  Every crisis management expert you can find will all agree that a command structure is required in a crisis situation.  Everyone must know their role, and one person must take the lead to make sure all roles are used properly.  A question:  How do you restrict your own freedom by restricting your neighbors?  Are you saying they are allowed to reciprocate, so everyone lives in a state of forced respect?  How do the others prove it was you who did what you did?  Would they even need proof?
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2008, 07:50:02 PM »
The point of anarchism isn't a unified peace.  It's a unified understanding that you don't have the right to take away the rights of any other individual.  Which governments do every single day.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2008, 10:18:03 PM »
A) Not all human beings are born with a moral compass.  Fact.  Read a little about the hitman known as "Iceman" if you don't believe me.  A moral compass is something we learn.  End of story.  You can not believe this due to whatever reasons you wish, but I just had to disagree.  If all humans were born with a moral compass, then right and wrong would be universally defined inter culturally.  There are plenty of cultures who had no moral issues with sex, nudity, or even violence (outside of assault).  Most societies disagree with murder, assault, theft, etc. because they disrupt the social order and cause problems.  That doesn't mean that we're born knowing not do it--if we were, mother and father wouldn't have had to tell us so.

B) It might be wrong to steal, for example, but I don't fault the person who steals because his entire life he's had no choice but to life on the edge of existence, since he lives in a system which has forgotten about him and locked him into a ridiculously low stature.

C) Most blue-collar criminals are victims in a sense.  They weren't born criminals, they were made criminals--just as they weren't born moral or immoral, they just were.  If the society they lived in cared more about them and less about the season finale of American Idol, maybe they wouldn't have grown up to believe it's okay to kill, steal, trespass, etc. because it's all they've been exposed to.  That doesn't mean it is okay, but it doesn't change the fact that they are victims of how they were raised and the situation they were raised in.

Yeah, okay, the idea behind anarchism is great.  Wonderful.  Impossible to move into from here.  How about instead of daydreaming about an ideal system, we work more on improving the system we have.  A complete overhaul of our, or any established power, would likely cause a major collapse of society (even a loose society like your ideal one).  Even over generations, it works better if we have ideas in mind for changing this system, in the hopes that maybe someday it will be changed enough that an overhaul isn't impossible--and in hopes that we'll have worked out bugs in this and any "ideal" system over the time that we're making small changes.

There does not need to be one person in charge.  Ever hear of an Oligarchy?  There may need to be something in charge, but it does not need to be a person.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
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Comfortable Madness

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2008, 10:50:59 PM »
A) Not all human beings are born with a moral compass.  Fact.  Read a little about the hitman known as "Iceman" if you don't believe me.  A moral compass is something we learn.  End of story.  You can not believe this due to whatever reasons you wish, but I just had to disagree.  If all humans were born with a moral compass, then right and wrong would be universally defined inter culturally.  There are plenty of cultures who had no moral issues with sex, nudity, or even violence (outside of assault).  Most societies disagree with murder, assault, theft, etc. because they disrupt the social order and cause problems.  That doesn't mean that we're born knowing not do it--if we were, mother and father wouldn't have had to tell us so.

B) It might be wrong to steal, for example, but I don't fault the person who steals because his entire life he's had no choice but to life on the edge of existence, since he lives in a system which has forgotten about him and locked him into a ridiculously low stature.

C) Most blue-collar criminals are victims in a sense.  They weren't born criminals, they were made criminals--just as they weren't born moral or immoral, they just were.  If the society they lived in cared more about them and less about the season finale of American Idol, maybe they wouldn't have grown up to believe it's okay to kill, steal, trespass, etc. because it's all they've been exposed to.  That doesn't mean it is okay, but it doesn't change the fact that they are victims of how they were raised and the situation they were raised in.

Yeah, okay, the idea behind anarchism is great.  Wonderful.  Impossible to move into from here.  How about instead of daydreaming about an ideal system, we work more on improving the system we have.  A complete overhaul of our, or any established power, would likely cause a major collapse of society (even a loose society like your ideal one).  Even over generations, it works better if we have ideas in mind for changing this system, in the hopes that maybe someday it will be changed enough that an overhaul isn't impossible--and in hopes that we'll have worked out bugs in this and any "ideal" system over the time that we're making small changes.

There does not need to be one person in charge.  Ever hear of an Oligarchy?  There may need to be something in charge, but it does not need to be a person.

Ummmm actually not a fact. Go read some Kant. According to him all knowledge of good is a priori knowledge. The compass is there people just choose not to follow it. Oh and  just because you have a certain belief about something doesn't make it a fact. End of story.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 10:59:56 PM by Comfortable Madness »
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

Comfortable Madness

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2008, 10:56:57 PM »
whoops. sorry. i clicked quote instead of modify  :-\















« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 11:00:50 PM by Comfortable Madness »
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

"Mourn if you must. But mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don." Logain Ablar

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2008, 11:22:28 PM »
Ummmm actually not a fact. Go read some Kant. According to him all knowledge of good is a priori knowledge. The compass is there people just choose not to follow it. Oh and  just because you have a certain belief about something doesn't make it a fact. End of story.

Philosophy and science are different.  There was a philosopher who believed that the dark spots on the moon were made out of lemonade (true story).  However, psychology is a science, and it studies things like criminal mindsets in multiple types of studies (including, but not limited to laboratory and case studies).  The science behind the stance agrees with what I said.  I know, I know--science isn't always right.  And you're welcome to believe what you want.  But the evidence I've seen in my exposure has pointed towards both not all humans having the capacity for a moral compass (due to genetic and chemical abnormalities) and morality being a learned status.

I guess we could go ahead and say there are no such things as facts, if evidence towards something doesn't make it a fact.  I'm okay with that.  In that case, I'll word it a different way.  The probability of humans not being born with a moral compass as a race is, according to the evidence currently know, extraordinarily low--to the point of being null.
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Necroben

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2008, 03:12:18 AM »
I guess we could go ahead and say there are no such things as facts, if evidence towards something doesn't make it a fact.  I'm okay with that.  In that case, I'll word it a different way.  The probability of humans not being born with a moral compass as a race is, according to the evidence currently know, extraordinarily low--to the point of being null.

And while I would agree with the morality issue, to a point.  Every thing we do or don't, is always a choice.  Good or bad, that individual made a choice to commit a crime or do a good deed, inspite or because of the consequences.  All to often there is more attention/pity attributed to the victimizer rather than the victim.  How many remember the names of those murdered by serial killers?
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