Author Topic: Seven years later...  (Read 12720 times)

GreenMonsta

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2008, 01:10:21 AM »
Don't hold back. Sometimes people need to hear things from another perspective to help them understand.
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Elmandr

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2008, 02:14:33 AM »
Don't hold back. Sometimes people need to hear things from another perspective to help them understand.

I wouldn't...Its not that im afraid, i just didn't know if you guys would be ready to discuss it.
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2008, 07:19:16 AM »
Quote
I wasn't sure if i should reply to this post but i have been looking at it for awhile--i decided to.
I'm glad you did.

I'm glad you didn't go defensive--lets pray that the world will realize that one day we will all be dead....theres no need to kill each other.

Alhemd Lilallah.(All blessing to Allah(God))
Oh if they put up with what I say I'm pretty sure anything you have to say will be just fine. xD 

I also hope for the same you do, but the odds of it happening are very low.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2008, 07:29:03 AM »
No flame.

You've obviously read a great deal on why communism is a good idea. Now go read some works on what happens when  people try and put it into practice.

Return and report.

True statement.  Communism hasn't worked in the past.  Hasn't had enough capitalism in it.  There's a balance to it, and however much I'm also inclined to daydream about the ideal setting, the fact is we just aren't ready for it--it's unlikely we ever will be.  Real world scenarios require a lot more compromise.  When it comes down to it, we can't save everybody--nor can we provide everybody with what they need.  But we could try a lot harder.  

There are a lot of superfluous programs (like upkeep for nuclear weapons we don't need--I'm not necessarily saying get rid of all of them, but we certainly don't need the number we have) that could be used to fund social programs.  And if we didn't waste money on exclusive bid contracts for services the government needs to help "Mr. Big Campaign Donor" we'd have a lot more cash, too.  If we had a 1% tax on political advertisements for this year alone, it would estimate at over $20 million (if I remember correctly over $2 billion are estimated to be spent on political ads in the 2008 campaign).  I'm not saying that's a program we should implement--there are definitely ways to raise funds to help, though.  I don't think anybody has explicitly said otherwise, I just wanted to point it out on the record.

Yeah, Skar, here it is better than most other places.  It's because we take advantage of other places, but it is better here.  Also, you're right that a brutal dictator or regime is in control of countries with the factories I was describing.  But they're factories that belong to our companies.  They're factories that make products for us to buy.  Seems to me like that makes it our faults, no matter who is in control of the country.

Also, too often I hear people talk about spreading freedom and democracy in Iraq, or taking Suddam out of power and say it justifies the actions, and talk about the great benefit to the Iraqi people.  That kind of talk leads me to believe those people don't think we invaded for ourselves.  You seem quite knowledgeable on the subject and I think when it comes down to it, it's an opinion of whether you think the outcome was worth the cost.  This will differ from person to person depending on how valuable they see the outcome and how costly they see the price--just like any bill.  I can happily agree to disagree on that point.

And I wont look it up right now, nor will I pretend to know the actual number, but I will if you want the full statistic (it's in a text I have locked away SOMEWHERE).  There is an unacceptable percentage of Americans who are considered "locked poor", which means social scientists say from the moment they are born to the day they die, they are considered to have had a negligible chance of moving up in the social strata.  That being said, there is (slightly) more upward movement than downward movement for most areas of the economic spectrum in this country.  However, this is coupled with the fact that most people live their entire lives in the social area they are born into, despite hard work.  Also, since the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer (and the middle class disappearing), I find it hard to swallow that capitalism is as great as we are often inclined to claim.  No, communism isn't a strong answer, either.  It sure wouldn't hurt to throw a little socialism into our thought processes, though, and try to spend more time stirring the bottom of the barrel (be it here or elsewhere), and a little less time tasting off the top.

Also, the new feature (I don't know how new, but it is new to me) that warns you before you post that somebody else has posted since you started writing is amazing, and whoever thought of it should be given some sort of a giraffe made out of cheese.  Should it be cheddar?  Should it be mozzarella?  I don't know, I'm not an expert, damnit!
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2008, 05:07:01 PM »
We already have some Socialist in this country.  Welfare, Medicaid, Affirmative Actions.  These are wealth redistribution and equality-based programs, and are all necessary to a degree.  The problem with them comes about when they are open-ended.  Why are many poor people have such difficulty moving up?  Because human beings tend to stick with what they know.  That, and some of these social programs (especially welfare) actually discourage those on it to succeed.  Why work 80 hours a week for just a few dollars more than what I can get for free?  Next thing you know, three generations go by and they know of no other way to live, so they must support those willing to keep giving them their livelihood.  Throw in the blame everybody else for your situation card, and you have a supplicant group of people who will continue to vote for the very people who are keeping them down.  These programs should be temporary, and much more specifically designed to increase job skills and education.  There is a similar problem with Affirmative action.  Sure, discrimination should be abolished, but do you really believe giving someone a job just to fill a quota is the answer?  It certainly helped at first, but now all it does is make people question whether they really earned the job or just got it because of their race.  Remember how much easier it was to spend your parents' money than your own?  Why do you think that is true?  You don't truly appreciate what you have unless you earn it yourself.
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2008, 05:39:55 PM »
No flame.

You've obviously read a great deal on why communism is a good idea. Now go read some works on what happens when  people try and put it into practice.

Return and report.

  I have read quite a bit on a lot of political theories.  Communism, in the Marxist\Leninist sense, will never work and is a bad idea.  Please do not confuse communism and socialism. The whole vanguard party bull that Marx spouted off about could never truly by benign or benevolent.  For similar reasons those that espouse benevolent dictatorships are wrong.  When placed in positions of authority people go all wonky( term of art ;D).  
  The Russian Revolution was originally a workers revolt in the early stages and there was much in-fighting about how to proceed.  You had a lot of soviets, workers counsels that had claimed the factory floor as their own, that were starting very democratic processes shortly after the October Revolution.  They were setting up worker owned collectives and communes through out the Russian realm.  Look at the Kronstadt Revolt which occurred in 1921 after the consolidation of power by Lenin and his cronies for one example.  The Bolsheviks began losing elections in most if not all of these worker owned soviets.  Lenin and his party did not like this, that is why they brutally put down dissent and consolidated power into a very dictatorial party structure.

  Yes, communism has never worked in the real world.  The reasons beside the one above, however, are that it was not a true communist nation.  Neither is China nor any other country that has or still does claim that title.  Remember they also called the Soviet Union a republic and that is definitely not the case.  The system of government is one of capitalism in the hands of a ruling elite party.  Where instead of corporations and private citizens, you have the Party and all the trappings that come with that.  Secondly, when you have a system based on the private ownership, be that by the government or by a private citizenry, you will end up with exploitation an some level of poverty.  With the USSR, as in China, Cuba and other supposed communist countries you have massive poverty because that ownership is so narrowly confined.  

   Within the US today you have less poverty, but that is changing because the gap between the haves and the have nots is getting larger.  The cost of things are raising faster than salaries are and the Middle class, which is a goodly majority of America is slowly getting sucked closer to the bottom.  Yes, there are some that make it to the top etc.  but most don't.  Mortgaged to the hilt, starting out in the hole if you had to get student loans to pay for college tuition, which is also rising out of control, and more and more people have to work longer harder hours for less and less pay.  This country and its economic policies are based on cheap oil, and since were are quickly approaching world peak oil, cheap oil is not going to be available.  Food costs are rising, transportation costs are rising, services fees are rising, eventually it will come to a head.  I for one have had to raise my rates because of gas prices and the costs incurred from me having to drive through the urban sprawl that is Kansas City.   Few people look at long term issues in my opinion (a result of our fast-food culture) and this may not happen in my life time or my children's life time, but eventually you will end up with basically the super-rich and the poor in this country.  Of course there will probably be a revolt before that becomes reality, history has shown that. (the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish Civil War, the 60's  the list goes on, and on.)

  

Skar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2008, 05:40:11 PM »
Gorgon:
Quote
But they're factories that ... is in control of the country.
True enough.  Companies from our country take advantage of the dictator's policies that produce cheap labor.  I don't buy, really, that it's therefore our fault, but for the sake of the discussion lets postulate that it is or at least that we/the companies are responsible for it.

What do the companies do about it?  The thing that immediately springs to mind, and which is the only real option for a commercial entity, is 'pay the workers more.'  This, however, is not a good solution because of the immediate pay differential between the workers employed by Nike and the rest of the people in the country. You can see, I'm sure, the problems that will arise when the Nike workers are making ten dollars a day and the other people are making 10 dollars a month. It's called inflation. So, whatever the companies do it has to be something that benefits people in that country across the board.  Well, what is the root cause of the state of things there?  The dictator.  Unless you get rid of him, the disease will remain no matter how much you fight the symptoms.  Which brings us right back around to military action by our government to dump the dictator.

Also, I suspect that if you ask the actual workers in the Nike factory, they'd say they are very pleased to have the job. Fact is, those factories are already improving the quality of life for the people working in them.  It looks like shite compared to what we have but looks like fuzzy bunnies compared to what they would otherwise have.

Quote
Also, too often I hear ... agree to disagree on that point.
Agreed.  

Often I think that the debate is framed in a way that obscures the self-interest on our part.  When someone complains bitterly about the cost to the Iraqi people, the natural response is to focus on the good that's actually coming to them. And the cost to the Iraqi people or to our own soldiers is what the objections usually come down to; the cost in human life.  If we could have dumped Saddam Hussein and started Iraq on the road to democracy without bloodshed I don't think anyone at all would have objected or be objecting now.

Quote
Also, since the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer (and the middle class disappearing), I find it hard to swallow that capitalism is as great as we are often inclined to claim.
I too have seen statistics that indicate that the middle class is disappearing.  When the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer you're moving towards a more 'stratified' system.  The root cause of stratification is, essentially, the inability to move from one economic level to another. Over the last many decades our government has been making that movement harder and harder through regulation and taxation.  The regulation is always emplaced in the name of 'making it better for the common man' and usually involves higher taxes and/or higher regulatory burdens on businesses and the rich to 'even the playing field.'  Unfortunately, those taxes and regulatory burdens also make it harder to start and run a business and harder to hold onto your own money once you've started to make a lot of it.  The actual result is that only those people who already have the powerful business in place or who already have the money to invest in avoiding the regulatory burden and the taxes can do so.  Thus it gets harder for the little guy to pierce the barrier, to move up from one economic situation to the next. Result? More pronounced stratification.

I am by no means advocating a complete absence of regulation, as I said earlier, you need laws that prevent predatory and unfair practices on the part of the haves.  IMO, we've already gone too far down the regulatory road and it's causing alot of the problems we're seeing today.  Fannie Mae and Freddi Mac are perfect examples.  The federal government under Clinton implemented regulation that forced mortgage companies to relax their loan standards so that 'more people could own their own homes.' It sound very nice, who doesn't want to own their own home? But in order to swing the deal the government had to guarantee those loans.  So, the mortgage companies were making loans to people who couldn't afford them, comfortable in the knowledge that when they defaulted the government would cover the loss. Thus the risk was transferred, by regulation, from the people conducting the loan business onto the taxpayer in the name of 'helping poor people own their own homes.' And there was no monetary motivation for the business people to behave responsibly, there was in fact pressure to behave otherwise.  We see very clearly how that has turned out.

Another good example are universities.  The cost of a university education has skyrocketed in recent decades.  Every time the government provided any sort of grant or student loan the cost of tuition rose, magically, to exactly meet what the government would provide.  In response the government would provide bigger loans, with the same result.  

You really can't stir the bottom of the barrel and expect anything good to come up.  The bottom of the barrel has to stir itself.  My view of government's role in that endeavor is to make it possible for the bottom of the barrel to stir itself by providing basic education and removing barriers like over-regulation or dishonest competition practices.  Or, in other words, the government should be in the business of leading the horse to water, not jamming its head down and screaming at it to drink.

Edit:
Renkar:
By happy coincidence, I already responded to the salient points in your post in my response to Gorgon.  Have at.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 05:43:27 PM by Skar »
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2008, 06:00:55 PM »
Skar,
You forgot to mention that the reason these jobs are sent away is because we do not force other countries' imports to meet our standards, so it allows companies to save money on overhead by avoiding environmental regulations.  The payroll tax also makes it more difficult for companies to remain competitive with foreign rivals.  NAFTA was a complete disaster for these reasons.  We can't hamstring our own companies and expect them to survive against the rest of the world.  Look at the lead scare in China.  Why was there so little uproar?  Because we can't compete.  Higher taxes on the rich, and on big companies is a sham.  Who do you think invests the money in new companies?  Provides the grants to education and medical research?  Funds non-profit and charitable organizations?  So the answer is to give the government, which has the fiscal responsibility of a 6 year-old, when the ones with this money already use it in a more helpful manner than Congress ever would.  Great idea. 
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2008, 06:20:54 PM »
Don't hold back. Sometimes people need to hear things from another perspective to help them understand.

I wouldn't...Its not that im afraid, i just didn't know if you guys would be ready to discuss it.
I don't think anyone on this forum is the type to get hate-filled (or at least not against Muslims). The blame for extremists' actions falls on the extremists, not on normal people or religion. And many dictators are just in it for the power rather than using a religious excuse.

There are other (non-Islamic, tribal) cultural practices in (not exclusively) some Muslim areas though that are quite repulsive. Such as honor killings.

What do you think of traditional Muslim cultural treatment of women? Mormons are not uncommonly (though we would say undeservedly) accused of wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant. Our response is often that men and women were endowed by God with different roles but that one is not more important than the other and that men should not exercise "unrighteous dominion." The Muslim explanation I have heard is simliar, yet from an outside perspective the Muslim treatment of women seems to measure much further along the scale.
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2008, 06:39:46 PM »
Don't hold back. Sometimes people need to hear things from another perspective to help them understand.

I wouldn't...Its not that im afraid, i just didn't know if you guys would be ready to discuss it.

I agree, although what you said seemed right on par with the other posts.  Putting the blame on FoxNews for perpetuating Muslim discrimination is a little out there.  Many people I know watch FoxNews all the time and not one of them has suddenly developed a Muslim prejudice because of it.
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2008, 08:20:09 PM »

"Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top."

-- Edward Abbey

  I love that quote.

Skar-

  It might not be the companies fault or our fault entirely, but we were much more part of the problem than the solution.  A lot of those dictatorships that companies are taking advantage of were or are US backed dictators.  Look at Pinochet, United Fruit, Dole and most of the history of South and Central America since the announcement of the Monroe Doctrine.  The US government in the 80's even started to attack (both verbal and physical through paramilitary groups) the Catholic Priests that were preaching liberation theology to the fruit workers and locals.  No we are not fully to blame, but there is a lot more blame on our part than the mainstream media\culture would want you to believe.  If you look at the track record of our foreign policy since WWII and what grew from that policy, i.e. cheap labor to produce cheap products to sell to the American people for very large profits, you can see the intertwining of foreign policy and economic policy.  I would argue and many would agree that both political parties have had the same foreign policy but have gone about it in different ways.  It was the Dems that invaded Vietnam so maybe not too different.  The mainstream media would like us to believe that there is some difference in the major parties but there is very little once you actually scratch the surface.


  Yes, they maybe happy with the job they have in that sweatshop, but what other options do they have?  Starve to death.  Just because something seems like it is better than the alternative still doesn't make that right.  Much the same could be and was said of the slaves of the south.  If not for slavery they would still be in the bush, etc.  I know you are in no way saying that, just wanted to point out the similarity.   

  I agree with your analysis of taxes and the stratification of society, but you do not take it far enough.  The reason that the government's attempts to "even the playing field" have not worked is because they are never truly meant to work.  When you pass a law that requires someone with 7 years of higher education and will charge hundreds if not thousands of dollars per hour to decipher and advise you on , there are going to be loop holes, some intentional some not so.  Take it from me a legislator has a hard time writing coherent criminal statutes.  When the regulations for an area of the economy is being constructed by lawmakers who are constantly being bribed through lobbyists and campaign contributions from the major players in that field do you truly think they are being impartial?  There is no check to prevent that.  You can argue about people voting to remove these people, but when those same lobbyists and contributors latch on to the newbie you get the same thing.  Now, I don't think that all government officials are this way, but they are human and when that little extra will help you win your next election and keep you from having to get a real job how do you think they are going to vote\construct that bill?  When you look at the contributions of the major companies of this country they donate to both parties almost equally.  Some will hedge one way or the other, but they cover both sides.  Look at the credit card legislation, the mob wishes they were able to charge the rates that credit card companies get away with legally.  Those payday loan places that mark the poorer neighborhoods and military installations charge ungodly interest.  So much so that you go there once and you have to continue to go back.   If you have not seen the Documentary "In Debt we Trust" do so, it will open your eyes.  The credit card business is the classic example of usury. 
 
  More regulation, no regulation it really doesn't matter when the system does not work.  More regulation just means more power for the big boys, while the small business person and the mom and pops are pushed to the side for large box stores.  What needs to happen is a focus on local economies.  Buy local products, produce local products.  It is very hard to do in this day an age, but the only way to reach any kind of sustainable, stable economy is to focus on the local economy.  When Wal-mart or Target, starbucks or applebee's open up their stores and offer cheaper, lower quality products, that in the long run will cost you more both monetarily and ecologically they are taking money out of the local economy.  Yes they are moving it to another local economy, but not truly.  Why do you think every credit card co. has their home office in Delaware.  Because that state has the least regulation in the US.  How did it get that way?  Heavy lobbying on a state level of course.  They seek the best possible location, so it is basically a race to the bottom for state governments.  You may say, yes but the local economy gets the tax revenue from the business.  Do they really.  They opened up a brand new speedway, an arena, and an entertainment district around here.  They lured these multi-million\billion dollar companies here by offering Tax increment financing(TIF), where their tax burden is near zero, if not zero for quite some time, like decades almost.  All so that they can distract people and make them spend their money on over priced drinks and sub-par food.  Does any of this really make sense to the common man, to the unwashed masses?  Does it really make sense for the unwashed masses?

darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2008, 09:01:52 PM »
So what are you suggesting?  What other form of government could be any less vulnerable to this corruption?  Being one of the so-called "unwashed masses" myself, I see the only true way to fix things is for us to stop blaming others for our failures, stop playing "football" politics where you just want your "team" to win, no matter how good an idea the other side has, and start thinking for ourselves.  Why does the media ask movie stars what their political views are?  Is there a group of people on this earth who are more out of touch with reality?  Everyone wants change, but expects someone else to stand up and actually make it happen.  How do we defeat lobbyists?  Tell your Senator or Congressmen you want ethics reforms even stronger than what was recently passed.  Tell them you want term limits for Senators and Representatives.  If they don't do it, keep voting them out until you vote someone in who will.  As difficult as this may seem, it is a lot easier than trying to completely retool the Government into some Confederate-Socialist hybrid.  This is even more important at the state level, where I agree with your statement about Maryland.  I live in a state of less than 1 million people, but we still manage budget shortfalls that rival states 5 times our size.  Why?  because one party has held 80% of the Congressional seats for decades, and are completely corrupted by their power.  The rep in my district had to die for someone new to be elected, and his nickname was the Absentee Congressman.  The Federal Senators and Congressmen have a 17% approval rating, yet every Incumbent up for election in Mass and RI is projected to win with little resistance.
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Elmandr

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2008, 09:28:37 PM »
Don't hold back. Sometimes people need to hear things from another perspective to help them understand.

I wouldn't...Its not that im afraid, i just didn't know if you guys would be ready to discuss it.
I don't think anyone on this forum is the type to get hate-filled (or at least not against Muslims). The blame for extremists' actions falls on the extremists, not on normal people or religion. And many dictators are just in it for the power rather than using a religious excuse.

There are other (non-Islamic, tribal) cultural practices in (not exclusively) some Muslim areas though that are quite repulsive. Such as honor killings.

What do you think of traditional Muslim cultural treatment of women? Mormons are not uncommonly (though we would say undeservedly) accused of wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant. Our response is often that men and women were endowed by God with different roles but that one is not more important than the other and that men should not exercise "unrighteous dominion." The Muslim explanation I have heard is simliar, yet from an outside perspective the Muslim treatment of women seems to measure much further along the scale.

Tell me those who hate the extremists for the things they do, are they able to distinct between the extremist and the TRUE muslim? Do you think that people even try? No. And why would they, it is much easier to hate then to understand.

Anyways...

First let it be said that, Honor killings are not apart of Islam. I realize that you noted this but it never hurts to emphasize such a thing. The Quran does not give the men or family of the women any right to kill them--in any sense. Whether it be for honor, or dignity, or whatever these nut jobs CNN and NBC are trying so hard to find and put on national TV to represent the Islamic and Arabic culture.

It is true that honor killings were a part of arabic culture but that was many, many years ago. Every region of the world was doing things at that time that they can't be proud of. Be it, slavery, or territorial invasion and genocide of a people. I'd like to think we have changed.

These cases of "honor killings" are not only extremely rare but completely wrong islamically.

In Islam, to answer you question, Women and Men are seen as different but equal. Each have their own particular responsibilties to themselves--i don't mean be a house wife--but a women must keep herself covered from any men beyond her direct family and husband. when i say covered, a long sleeve shirt with an ankle long skirt and a head scarf is fine--that whole nicab is completely voluntary--similar to how monks make vow of silence--to achieve more deeds if they so wish it.

Similar to the mormons sure.

I should say, if people want to how muslim women feel--if people want to be fair to themselves and the true to the information they seek, the should ask a muslim woman.

Ask a muslim woman who has a relationship with her creator, and see what she tells you.

FACT: Islam it the fastest growing religion and the most types of people coming into Islam are educated, middle-class, women.

Turn your TV off and read. Everyone. Even me.

The Quran does not shun or deem women as sinners, witches, and lessers to men. infact women are often mentioned as the heart of a family. The Quran says things like; Heaven is under the heel of the mother. This is telling sons and daughters to respect her, and love her for that is the key paradise.

The Prophet Mohamed(peace be upon him), when approached by a young man who asked what are they secrets to enter heaven. The Prophet(pbuh) replied, your mother, then your mother, then your father.

Twice as much as the man.

Ok, im getting carried away. yeah, honor killings are stupid medieval cultural thing, that happens very rarely when an arabic family struggles to adjust to the western world.

Or if a dad is, in my opinion proud and embarrased enough about what people think(WTF?) to kill his own daughter, wife or sister. CRAZY PEOPLE do these things, and crazy people come from everywhere.

My sister is a very devout muslim--she is studying chemical engineering in UofM.(university of Michigan).

I really hope you understand that honor killings aren't common or accepted.

Promise me you'll stop watching GOVERNMENT FUNDED news.


"I love you."
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"I don't feel good."
"They do that to you."
"my legs, their numb."
"Hahaha!"
"haha!"

Skar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2008, 09:58:27 PM »
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As difficult as this may seem, it is a lot easier than trying to completely retool the Government into some Confederate-Socialist hybrid.

More importantly, it's a lot easier than trying to retool an entrenched dictatorial, communist, or socialist government.

Democracy and the rule of law don't provide easy living happiness and light for everyone.  What it provides is the ability and opportunity to change how things work without beheading everyone involved with the current system.

Renkar:
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Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top.
That quote from Edward Abbey is a good one and the principal is true.  I'd never heard it before so thanks!
The trick is to let the pot stir itself. And, of course, the only system that has ever made that possible without bloodshed is democracy and the rule of law.  We've seen how communism and socialism work, which is to say they don't.

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Yes, they maybe happy with the job they have in that sweatshop, but what other options do they have?  Starve to death.
Sorry but no.  There are plenty of people living in the countries in question who are neither working for an American owned sweatshop nor starving to death.

As for your points claiming that government is largely corrupt and inefficient, you bet.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Which is why I think putting government in charge of even more things as socialism calls for, or all things as communism calls for is a really bad idea.

"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

-Fellfrosch

Skar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2008, 10:22:59 PM »
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Promise me you'll stop watching GOVERNMENT FUNDED news.
Which government funded news would that be?

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Tell me those who hate the extremists for the things they do, are they able to distinct between the extremist and the TRUE muslim? Do you think that people even try? No. And why would they, it is much easier to hate then to understand.
This is kind of a broad brush with which to condemn everyone but your own culture, don't you think? 

I don't need to distinguish between anyone and a TRUE Muslim.  I don't care if you or anyone else is a TRUE Muslim anymore than you care whether I'm a TRUE Mormon.  All I care about is being able to distinguish between people who want to kill me and those who don't.  When the streets of Palestine (along with a lot of other places) filled with happy cheering people on 9/11 it was a little eye-opening.  When I was walking in the souk in Kuwait city, our ally in the Middle East, and refrained from purchasing little statuettes of the World Trade Center with a lighter built into the top and a bust of Osama Bin laden affixed to the base, it was a little eye-opening too.

Before anyone gets all foamy, let me say I don't hate Muslims.  I don't even hate the extremists.  I just hope the extremists die before they get a chance to kill my family or friends.  I've helped a few along in this regard, no hate involved.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:41:51 PM by Skar »
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

-Fellfrosch