Author Topic: Seven years later...  (Read 12714 times)

Renkar

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2008, 04:08:33 PM »
well said Gorgon, and i agree that it is going to get worse, power never gives away its control freely.  

GM,
    I get you about the brother thing, my misunderstanding.  I wish that we as a human race felt the same way about each other as you feel about your fellow soldiers, the world would be a much better place.

    I think we should have worked with the entire international community to hunt down and destroy everyone involved in the 9/11 attack.  We, as a nation, had a grand opportunity to unite the world, to truly make a change in how people perceive the United States and everyone's role on the world stage.  Instead, we played the role of the typical American Cowboy.  It was like watching a twisted version of Dr. Stangelove and Kelly's Heroes, only without Slim Pickens, Clint Eastwood or the humor.  Oh, I laughed but only to keep myself from crying.  They, meaning the government and their mouthpiece, beat the drum of war so loud and so hard that they started believing the stuff they were shoveling.  

  As for staying in Iraq,  I believe we should pull out immediately.  Our history of puppet regimes is well known throughout the rest of the world, and the New Iraq government is no different, although they are starting to show a little backbone when standing up to Bush and his fellow war criminals.  We should go back to international community and tell them, we screwed up.  That Bush and Co. should stand trial for War Crimes, that the Iraqi people need to work out their own issues and that we as a global community will help in anyway possible to correct the mistakes.  I know that this is a really simplified answer and I don't have a complete grasp of the international politics involved, but I think genuine democracy set up by the people, is hundreds of times better than the current "gun barrel" democracy.  You can't force a people's movement, you can't invade a country set up a new government with strong ties to American Companies, and create an occupation that is just as oppressive, if not more so, than the previous one then expect those people to sit by and watch and accept it.  Did anyone every hear George Carlin's Big Dick Theory.  "Pull out?! Well that doesn't sound manly to me Bob, I say we leave it in there awhile."  That stuff gets me every time. ;D

  The powers that be have taken the Vietnam playbook and ran with it.  That didn't end well for any involved, but for some reason they think that this one will work out better.  Perhaps they truly don't care how it ends up, again much like Vietnam.  It really won't effect them.  They will still have their billions of dollars with little to no skin off their noses.  The men and women of the services will pay the butchers bill, not W or any of the architects of this fiasco.  They will retire to the countryside bathed in the blood of the innocent, but they won't notice because of all the shiny new crap they can buy.  

Skar

  • Moderator
  • Level 54
  • *****
  • Posts: 3979
  • Fell Points: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2008, 04:50:40 PM »
Ok, I've taken all I can stand in this thread:
Quote
I don't have a complete grasp of the international politics involved,
You can say that again. You complain that we didn't use diplomacy after 10 years of UN sanctions, weapons inspectors and oil for food programs?  What the hell would you call it if not diplomacy? It didn't work and then 9/11 changed the playing field forever.

Quote
You can't force a people's movement, you can't invade a country set up a new government with strong ties to American Companies, and create an occupation that is just as oppressive, if not more so, than the previous one then expect those people to sit by and watch and accept it.
Are you insane or are you really calling the Coalition presence in Iraq an occupation that's worse than Saddam's regime?  Step away from the Daily Kos and do a little research into what's actually happening over there.  I can tell you from personal, on the ground, eyeball experience that the people in Iraq desperately want to live in a Democracy and are willing to fight and die for that chance. So take your, "you can't force a people's movement" and shove it up your ass.

Quote
The powers that be have taken the Vietnam playbook and ran with it.  That didn't end well for any involved, but for some reason they think that this one will work out better.  Perhaps they truly don't care how it ends up, again much like Vietnam.
The only way the war in Iraq will end up like Vietnam is if we suddenly back out on our promises and commitments to the people on the ground and abandon them to the murderous terrorists they're fighting, with our help, right now.  That's obviously what you want so spare me your crocodile tears for the innocents you're so anxious to abandon to the tender mercies of Jihad.

As for the whole "Iraq had nothing to do with Al Quaeda, Iraq was an unnecessary war" crowd.   I respectfully disagree.

The Middle East is a vast teeming throng of people who have a storied and proud history. Considering the wealth that has been pouring into that area for the last 50 years they should be lounging about swimming pools or washing their SUVs while they think about how to get the next promotion or put Janny through college. Instead, they live in chicken coops, are barely literate and have no hope for their children beyond, usually, an early death from some trivial disease, long conquered in the west. This, understandably, pisses them off no end. It pisses me off and I don't even live there. "So what went wrong?" they ask themselves. "Damnit, where is the money for roads and hospitals and schools? " The obvious answer, of course, is it's sitting in bank accounts belonging to their rulers, despotic dictators all.

This poses a problem for the dictators. If the people they rule are allowed to draw and act on these conclusions, they stand to lose their power and privilege through bloody revolution. This is, of course, unacceptable, so a suitable target must be found. America is the obvious answer considering our involvement in the region over oil, but more importantly, the high visibility of our cultural exports. The fact that we advocate a lifestyle that is anathema to the religious zealots of the region is simply a bonus, since it automatically legitimizes anti-american rhetoric by striking that vast religious gong.

There is not a snowball's chance in hell that we could peacefully influence most Middle-Eastern regimes to liberalize in less than many decades. Those regimes know very well that the reason their people haven't twigged to their blame-shifting, "It's America not me!" is because they have the kind of iron control of the media and everything else that allows them to dictate what their people hear and believe. Even the most vanilla liberalization would undermine that control enough for their own people to turn on them. Not acceptable.

So let's take several decades dang it! Just let them stew and allow toothless sanctions to gum away at the dictators' will to power. It'll work eventually, right? Unfortunately, that stopped being an option on 9/11. Suddenly the fruits of that Middle Eastern Dictator's power hungry rhetoric turned into a direct threat to civilians in our country. I was not surprised on 9/11. I saw it or something like it coming. If anything, I was surprised it had taken so long. Next time it could be a nuke, or sarin gas, or a weaponized biological. With those kinds of threats on the horizon, we no longer had decades to sweetly wait for the dictators to see reason.

The benefits of democracy and capitalism can be summarized by the phrase: "We have never been attacked by a country with a McDonalds." (I don't know who made that observation or I'd give them credit) So how do you spread McDonalds in the Middle-East? Well, since the Jihadists would resist the McDonalds campaign with guns, you have to lead with your own guns, and while you're at it, why not pick a country with a history of secularism, like Iraq? (Just to clarify I'm listing Iraq's history of secularism as a reason TO invade that country instead of somewhere else) Iraq was the most likely source of WMDs for the terrorists at the time, they were still in non-compliance with a UN resolution calling for military action in response to non-compliance, we felt bad about abandoning the revolutionaries in '92, we had basing rights on their southern border, their official military was a known and pathetic quantity, etc...

Given the threat and the need for steps to prevent further action on our own soil, Iraq was an excellent choice of venue.
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

-Fellfrosch

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2008, 05:08:10 PM »
Ach!  I took too long to type again!  Anwyay, now that the word war criminal has been spewed, we can confirm your true nature.  You just trapped yourself, because in order for Bush to be tried as a war criminal, you would also need to try every member of his cabinet, the Joint Chiefs, the Generals in the field, not to mention anyone in the House and Senate who voted for the war.  In addition, Tony Blair and his Generals would also need to be tried.  You see, in Iraq, the Geneva Convention was followed to the letter by the U.S., even when the Insurgents were using civilians as human shields, so the only "war crime" even thought to be committed was to enter Iraq illegally.  Unfortunately for you, the 17 resolutions, along with the repeated attacks on our planes in the no fly zone (he shot at us all the time), gave us the right to go in, and Bush got the approval from Congress.  Now I know what your thinking, he lied.  I am amazed at the number of people who condemn Bush as a moron and in the same breath believe he is capable of duping the entire world into going to war just because he felt like it.  I am sorry Renkar, but you are obviously incapable of seeing anything but a conspiracy theory, and have drunk the Ward Churchill Kool-aid.  The top 5-10% is entirely corrupt and greedy, huh?  Then we are all doomed.  You should move to Canada as soon as possible.  You obviously have it all figured out.  And yet, I would bet that you have not had a single idea on how to improve things that hasn't already been tried, nor would you wish to.  You would rather just complain and hope the world changes to fit your beliefs.  That's fine.  You just keep complaining and villifying the very country that gives you the right to do so.  There are people out there who will fight to keep that freedom, even if you don't deserve it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 05:13:37 PM by darxbane »
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Miyabi

  • Level 45
  • *
  • Posts: 3098
  • Fell Points: 1
  • Simple is the concept of love as eternity.
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2008, 06:17:58 PM »
People still miss the point.  We didn't go into Iraq without diplomacy, we went because diplomacy failed 17 times. 
Diplomacy didn't fail.  The U.S. failed to listen to what U.N. intelligence found.  If that's what you call diplomacy failing, then I guess you're right.
オレは長超猿庁じゃ〜。

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *****
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2008, 06:55:14 PM »
Skar knows what he's talking about more than anyone here. He's the only one here with any credentials. Anyone else is just a casual onlooker picking and choosing facts.
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

  • Level 29
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
  • Fell Points: 1
  • If we can teach a monkey to use a Rubic's Cube...
    • View Profile
    • Kinase Moves the Audio
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2008, 07:19:12 PM »
The benefits of democracy and capitalism can be summarized by the phrase: "We have never been attacked by a country with a McDonalds." (I don't know who made that observation or I'd give them credit) So how do you spread McDonalds in the Middle-East? Well, since the Jihadists would resist the McDonalds campaign with guns,...

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Mcdonalds_World_locations_map.PNG

I didn't catch the news flash of mass jihadist bombings of McDonalds in the middle east.  Seems to me like McDonalds managed to get in there just fine without guns a blazing.  :-D.

The reason a nation with a McDonalds never attacked us is because the brutal elite is an economic elite instead of a military elite.  I mean, Wal Mart and its entities also are a great way to make friends with nations (like China).  Because it gives plenty of money to those making decisions, even if it demolishes the lives of the poor.  But the poor don't make the decisions, so that country wont attack us.  There are definite benefits to capitalism, especially from OUR point of view.  But that doesn't make it less of a destructive force to the bottom of the barrel.  You spoke of a man living in a hut with no hope for him or his children.  Well, when do we hear about the man who works fifteen hour shifts destroying his fingers on an assembly line for a few bucks, with no hope for his children to escape the cycle?

Quote
I was not surprised on 9/11. I saw it or something like it coming.

At least somebody did.  Oh, wait.  The CIA saw it coming, too.  Hmmmm...

Quote
Iraq was the most likely source of WMDs for the terrorists at the time

Except for our national and international intelligence sources that said Iraq had no nuclear power.

Quote
and create an occupation that is just as oppressive

That's simply ridiculous.  Our occupation of Iraq is not anywhere near as oppressive as the previous regime.  Perhaps the extremist civil war reaction to the collapse of their previous social structure is what you mean.  Our occupation in and of itself is not something I would describe as "oppressive".

Also, considering we have had hundreds of military scholars study the Vietnam war and write up rules of engagement for similar situations, rules which we are using (to a moderate amount of success), this isn't just like Vietnam.  Our military had a good idea of what they were getting into, and how to handle it, beforehand.  Unfortunately, a "good idea" is not "a foolproof plan".  Nobody can expect that.

It would be silly to say that the sole reason we went into Iraq is capitalistic gain for the top X%.  It was a major reason, because those are the people calling the shots (or the people controlling the people calling the shots through funding, bribes and/or lobbying), but there were other reasons, too.  Doesn't make it justified.  There are PLENTY of nations with sectarian violence, PLENTY of states with brutal dictators or completely collapsing government (look at mid-Africa and the Congo for goodness sake), and PLENTY of nations who could endorse an attack or plot an attack as simple as the 9/11 attacks (something Iraq didn't even do).  We didn't handle the situation gracefully, we didn't get the end result we expected, and we didn't do anything to "help those poor people".  We did everything we did for us and ours, and if we happened to help those poor folks over there, we'll take credit for it.  End of story.  The fact that we alienated the world community while doing it certainly didn't make it any better of an endeavor.

Quote
Skar knows what he's talking about more than anyone here. He's the only one here with any credentials. Anyone else is just a casual onlooker picking and choosing facts.

Credentials mean that a person is more educated on a subject.  Which means they have more facts to share (or pick and choose from, in some cases).  NEVER do credentials imply that a person is correct (not that I disagree with many of the things Skar said), nor should they imply that you should "take his word for it".  Credentials should mean to you that he can defend his point of view WITHOUT sharing he has credentials, because he is an expert in the subject.  Which means it shouldn't matter if I know he has credentials, it should be apparent that he knows what he is talking about (which it is).  The fact that he has credentials really shouldn't even have to be brought up, and if it DOES need to be brought up, it pretty much shows that a person doesn't have faith in the credentials they boast. 

Fortunately, Skar never brought up his credentials.  :-D.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

Renkar

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2008, 07:49:12 PM »
    No I don't have it all figured out and never claimed I did.  I am fine with bringing everyone up on war crimes charges if it fits, and I believe that it does if you look at the evidence. There are several nice books laying out the crimes of this administration.  Hell just look at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII, you can go down the list and tick off almost all of them.
   Conspiracy theorists are a bunch of wingnuts that add to the spectacle of the system.  There is not some cabal of CEO's or jews or whatever ruling this country.
  There is a lot of inbreeding between the Government and the economic sector.   Why do you think all those corporations give large donations to both parties? How is it that the CEO's and large donors get private meetings with the president, but me or you who may have some grievance must talk to our representative, to wit: we get some bullshit form letter about how our concerns are noted and we are shuffled along the bureaucratic assembly line with nothing truly done about it and the hopes that we will eventually let it go.  Are our interests truly a concern?  When there was a huge outcry against this invasion and yet no discussion was held, the only people who questioned the evidence were labeled unamerican, accused of being unpatriotic and then the news media moved onto stoking the fear of the people with the drum beat of war.

  9/11 was not an inside job, it was perpetrated by some very evil people who have perverted a religion to dupe the people of that area into committing atrocious acts.  Of course, we did not help the situation by our actions.    

It was not just Bush, it was the entire system.
 
  As for how to change things, here is how.  Lets spend 400 billion dollars a year on Education, Housing, and food in this country, not on new ways to kill people.  We spend more on "Defense" in this country than most of the world combined.  You want to get rid of crime then get rid of poverty.  As Martin Luther King Jr.  said we have the means we simply lack the will.  What would this country look like if the necessities of life were provided for all , if we did not have to degrade ourselves by selling our lives away one hour at a time to eek out a meager existence.  Let's work to create understanding, let's work toward actual social justice, not some myth.  We must organize on a local level to reclaim our say in how our lives are lived, and how this country is governed.  Let's wake from this stupor of wage-slavery and do something glorious.  Let us make our own social contracts, let us be free to explore the depth and breadth of this world without the worry of how we are to afford food, health care etc.  
  
  I do not simply complain and whine as you suggest, I talk to people, point out the bullshit shoveled by authority.  It is so ingrained in people to adhere to what authority tells them, and authority takes advantage of that fact.

  I work to keep the so-called justice system from running away with our rights as human beings in this country.  I am not just sitting around like some ape playing with my shirt, hoping that the world will someday just become better.  Not going to happen.  If we want a better world we have to make it ourselves, we cannot rely on government or the power structure to look after us or anyone else, because at the base of it, all those in power will only work hard enough to remain in power.  Make sure that just enough people think they are happy and blame their problems on foreign countries, on some undefined future threat as they take more steps to strengthen their control.  Initially it was the natives of this land, then the british, the mexicans, the africans, the communists, the terrorists, the immigrants, it is all the same just with different names and colors.  

   The amazing thing about capitalism is the ignorance of its victims, don't remember who said it, but it is true.  We need to shift the paradigm in this country and around the world.  It should not be about competition but about mutual aid.  It should not be about who believes in God, and if they believe in the right God.  And before you start spouting about jihadists etc.  remember Bush called it a Crusade at one point. Very poor choice of words.  Palin said that the Iraq war was God's work.  Really?  The all-knowing, all-loving God of the New Testament is a big fan of War huh? For that matter the Old testament god wasn't very fond of it either.  Something about thou shalt not kill i think is how it goes.  We need to re-evaluate how we see the world.  It is not us and them, it should be we.

Skar-
  I don't for a minute believe that the Iraqi people do not want to be free to decide their own fate.  That is what all people want on some level.  I agree that they are willing to fight and die for that chance, and that they should be given that opportunity.  I just don't believe you can teach someone about democracy, true democracy at the point of a gun and the dropping of bombs.
 

 

SarahG

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 544
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2008, 08:22:38 PM »
What would this country look like if the necessities of life were provided for all , if we did not have to degrade ourselves by selling our lives away one hour at a time to eek out a meager existence.

Are you really proposing that no one work anymore?  Who exactly would provide the necessities of life for all?  I'm not quite clear on what you're suggesting.
He ate my horse.

Skar

  • Moderator
  • Level 54
  • *****
  • Posts: 3979
  • Fell Points: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2008, 08:37:59 PM »
Gorgon:
Quote
Well, when do we hear about the man who works fifteen hour shifts destroying his fingers on an assembly line for a few bucks, with no hope for his children to escape the cycle?
Point out a man who lives like that and I can probably point out a man who lives in a country under a brutal dictatorship.  You speak about the destructive effects of capitalism on the bottom of the barrel.  Agreed, there are people at the bottom of the barrel, even here, and it sucks down there.  Are you arguing that capitalism produces worse conditions at the bottom of the barrel, than say socialism, fascism, or any form of authoritarianism?  Surely not.  So if the bottom of the barrel sucks in all cases, what's the difference with free-market capitalism?  The ability to leave the bottom of the barrel if you're smarter, faster, more hard-working, or luckier than the next guy.  Still pretty grim, right? Dog-eat-dog and all that.  Throw in the rule-of-law and democracy though and suddenly it's not so bad, the ruthless and the unscrupulous are reigned in by the majority. Combine those two things and suddenly you've got the potential for everyone to make it out of "the cycle" no matter who they are. Even the bottom of our barrel looks like paradise to the bottom of the barrel in Nicaragua.    

Quote
Except for our national and international intelligence sources that said Iraq had no nuclear power.
Actually, they said the opposite, not to mention the other WMDs.  And it convinced EVERYBODY. I was in Kuwait for the 6 months leading up to the invasion. I know where some of the intelligence Powell produced when making the case for war came from and it was good intelligence.  Saying otherwise is referencing 20/20 hindsight as though it were relevant.

Quote
We didn't handle the situation gracefully, we didn't get the end result we expected, and we didn't do anything to "help those poor people".  We did everything we did for us and ours, and if we happened to help those poor folks over there, we'll take credit for it.  

War is never graceful, nor does it ever proceed according to plan.  When things go off the rails you don't throw up your hands and quit (unless a loss would help you politically apparently), you learn, change tactics, and adapt.  Exactly what we've been doing under Bush and the military leadership, and it's working.  

Of course we did it for us and ours.  If the situation in the Middle-East didn't change we could expect terrorist bombings  ad nauseum, or at least until they achieved a global caliphate and instituted Sharia.  Our actions were and are very well tailored to producing a state that provides a lifestyle for its people that makes blowing yourself up look stupid when you could be making money, sipping tchai with your wives, or enjoying a halal Big Mac. It's a long-term goal that involves spreading that dream to the rest of the world. 9/11 made it more urgent that we do it in the Middle East. Purely self-serving.  What of it?

Renkar:
Quote
As for how to change things, here is ... it should be we.
I agree that the picture you paint is an ideal one.  It should, in fact, be "we" rather than us and them. My problem with your statements is with some of the underlying assumptions.  

First, the idea that there is some method by which everyone can be provided for without anyone having to work,
Quote
"What would this country look like if the necessities of life were provided for all , if we did not have to degrade ourselves by selling our lives away one hour at a time to eek out a meager existence."
I just don't see how that could work.

Second, the idea that if we all just loved each other and helped each other life would be better is absolutely correct.
The problem arises when someone, anyone, decides not to play your game.  Then we're back to reality and if we're not prepared to deal with those who don't want to play well with others, they automatically win.

Quote
You want to get rid of crime then get rid of poverty. 

This is an interesting idea. We certainly have not conquered poverty in this country, though being poor here is a much better prospect than being poor in, say, India.  However, we have produced the best system the world has ever seen for lessening the amount and consequences of poverty.  Yet you're arguing that we should not be spreading this system elsewhere?  That's a little suspicious.

Quote
  I just don't believe you can teach someone about democracy, true democracy at the point of a gun and the dropping of bombs.
You don't have to teach it.  The idea is viral.  What you have to do with the point of a gun and the dropping of bombs is keep the bad guys from preventing its establishment.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 08:39:52 PM by Skar »
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

-Fellfrosch

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2008, 08:48:15 PM »
What the UN intelligence found?  There is no UN intelligence agency.  All they had were weapons inspectors who could hardly get into the country, and were only shown what Saddam wanted them to see.  Hell he hid more than 200 missiles that could reach Israel until 2002, which were in direct violation of the surrender agreement!  That was what really started the ball rolling.  The UN weapons inspectors could not say with certainty that there were no WMD's.  They once again wanted more time to look.  How much time do you allow?  How many times can you warn somebody, without acting, before they begin to believe your threats are toothless?  It was quite apparent that both Saddam and Osama believed that we would not respond.  The UN has become a corrupt organization that performs half-assed humanitarian efforts and doesn't follow its own rules.  Moreover, since the US, Great Britain, Australia, and Russia (yes Russia too) all had intelligence leaning towards WMD's in Iraq,  isn't it more likely that four full time intelligence agencies have more credence than one weapons inspector?  In any case, Hussein  had the money and equipment to get started quickly, which made him very dangerous if left alone too long.  Don't think for a second that he wouldn't have helped with a future attack once he got the UN off his back.


I need to type faster, Skar keeps stealing my thunder.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Renkar

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2008, 11:06:23 PM »
  When i say provided for, i don't mean they just appear out of thin air, though that would be cool if it did.  I mean that the "work" we do is simply a maze set for the masses to run.  Some win, most lose, and in the end though, I feel that we all lose.  We are so focused on running that maze, so focused on making a living we have no time to live.

  I don't know about you, but if someone came to me and said come help us build your house, it is yours not the banks, not the governments, it is yours and all you have to do is take time out of your life to help build other homes for a month out of the year.  I would do that without hesitation.  I am just using this as a general example of course, but that is a communal agreement I could live with.

What about the slacker or the one who doesn't want to go along, well he doesn't have to.  He can go find somewhere else to live, but I think simply helping another human being would be preferable than struggling to survive.  Yet we still do not live this way?  hmmm, perhaps we are conditioned to go against this instinct?  I think we can agree that the human is a social animal and as such if someone is provided these things they would work toward repaying that debt to the community not because they have to, but because they want too. 

  Ask people on the bus or in your office or where ever you meet them, if things like food, clothing and shelter were provided would you simply sit on your ass all day, or would you do something that benefited society that you found rewarding in its own right.  Many people enjoy working outside, gardening, building things etc.  Of course, they are going to say yes.  Just like when you label things like the Patriot Act and No Child Left Behind, people will line up to pass it without reading the fine print.  We don't want to be the one who poo-poos all over children do we.  Of course we have cut heath benefits for children who, by no fault of their own lost the genetic lottery and cannot afford it.  We have been so focused on making money and the like we never really ask ourselves if there is a better way.  There is a better way. 
   The whole of human history one could argue is a study in the evolution of human freedom.  Humans at their core desire to be free and work toward that end.  We, the United States, are not that end and are in some respects a barrier to that end.  We want to maintain the status quo, because enough people in this country are satisfied with the status quo that the problems are glossed over and swept under rugs until they come crashing into skyscrapers in the form of a plane.   The problems and the issues of other countries and other peoples truly don't inflict themselves on the majority of Americans on a daily basis.  Oh sure, when the sweatshop workers that make the cloths we wear go on strike to get a raise and the price of that nifty t-shirt with the cool saying goes up in price we are inconvenienced, but I don't think many Americans truly think about where and how the things that appear on the shelves got there.  What that Made in Taiwan\China\Indonesia label really means.  Do you?  Do you really think about it when you go into starbucks and order a coffee how some dirt poor bean farmer in Africa is paid pennies a day to provide the coffee beans, and how the foreign policies of this country made it so that Starbucks can exploit that person.  Having the right logo\brand is all that matters to some maybe even most.  It is all a spectacle to keep us occupied.  I am not without blame or shame about this.  I grew up in middle-class american, went through the public school system, went through college, go to Target and Wal-mart etc.  I am not a blue collar worker who has to struggled to make a living.  I am just as guilty as the next fellow, but I realize this now and wish to change this. 

  Production for production sake is not the way to organize society.   We are bombarded with advertisements about this new version or that newer model with more bells and whistles.  Creating this collective desire to purchase\consume simply to consume.  I would bet that building a car that is very reliable, very gas efficient or uses an alternative renewable fuel source that could last for decades is well within our technological reach, but it won't be done because if you make such a product you would kill demand for the same product after everyone owns that product.  Is this a bad-thing?  No more filling garbage dumps with the convenient accessories of life.  No more continually having to sell yourself by the hour to provide yourself with new ways to cope with an unfulfilled life.    Sorry this got so of track. Flame away. 

Quite the lively discussion though.

Skar

  • Moderator
  • Level 54
  • *****
  • Posts: 3979
  • Fell Points: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2008, 11:27:24 PM »
No flame.

You've obviously read a great deal on why communism is a good idea. Now go read some works on what happens when  people try and put it into practice.

Return and report.
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

-Fellfrosch

Elmandr

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 291
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2008, 11:45:38 PM »
Seven years later, even writing down the date "9/11" triggers a ripple of sadness in me. :(

This past July, I was in NY for an interview. I stayed at a hotel right across from Ground Zero. Yep, the construction was loud. But it kind of made me glad to hear evidence of rebuilding. I peered down at the site from the fourteenth floor of my room. Hard to capture how I felt. I have no idea how I would have reacted to the horrific events that day if I had been there.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say that I have not forgotten nor ever will.



I wasn't sure if i should reply to this post but i have been looking at it for awhile--i decided to.

That day, i remember being in my foriegn language class in the sixth grade. My teacher picked up her phone, and seconds later she dropped it and proceeded to cry--i found out later her brother worked in the building when they told her it was attacked--i also found out he didn't make it.

Any time somebody is killed, it is a tragedy, so 9/11 is a 3,000+ toll tragedy. It has changed me and my life forever.

I'm an arab-american, i'm also so muslim.

I hate, more then you can believe, that 9/11 happened. Since then my people have been the focus of ignorant racial hatred. Sometimes people see me and see what fox news tells them what we are. They see the few extremsists--who aren't muslim at all--and see me.

I HATE Ossama Bin Laden. He is not a muslim. Face it, every religion has people who used skewed passages in its holy book to do what he wanted. Christians and the lynching of innocent blacks--why don't we call them Crusadists? i can tell you--because the news isn't painting it in your head.

And, though i do feel remorse and sorrow for the families who lost loved ones that day, i can't feel as bad as you. Not because i don't love america but becuase such disasterous and horrible death is something im used to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQqItZu4Is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOMrjWs6-c&feature=related

We should mourn for those who died and lost in 9/11 but also realize and be thankful that we live in such a powerful country that is able to protect itself....for some countries and families 9/11 happens every morning.
"I love you."
"you dont. You just think you do because i'm all you know."
"Really? So whats this burning sensation i'm having in my stomach?"
"Too much ale."
"Not love?"
"No. But i can see how you confused the two."
"I don't feel good."
"They do that to you."
"my legs, their numb."
"Hahaha!"
"haha!"

Skar

  • Moderator
  • Level 54
  • *****
  • Posts: 3979
  • Fell Points: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2008, 11:57:56 PM »
Quote
I wasn't sure if i should reply to this post but i have been looking at it for awhile--i decided to.
I'm glad you did.
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

-Fellfrosch

Elmandr

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 291
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2008, 12:02:47 AM »
Quote
I wasn't sure if i should reply to this post but i have been looking at it for awhile--i decided to.
I'm glad you did.

I'm glad you didn't go defensive--lets pray that the world will realize that one day we will all be dead....theres no need to kill each other.

Alhemd Lilallah.(All blessing to Allah(God))
"I love you."
"you dont. You just think you do because i'm all you know."
"Really? So whats this burning sensation i'm having in my stomach?"
"Too much ale."
"Not love?"
"No. But i can see how you confused the two."
"I don't feel good."
"They do that to you."
"my legs, their numb."
"Hahaha!"
"haha!"