Author Topic: Seven years later...  (Read 12721 times)

Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2008, 08:42:03 PM »
First, about Hiroshima and Nagasaki,  well, I hate to burst the golden image of our glorious country, but our government knew that Japan was already considering surrender and made overtures to the Soviets as early as July 13 of that year.  The US wanted an unconditional surrender to the US and not the Russians.   They had already started to divide up the post-war world in preparations for their cold war against those evil and vile commies.  The dropping of the bombs were the opening moves to the cold war that had already begun.  Anyway, back to my point.  The US did not need to drop either bomb.  Japan was cut off from the rest of the world.  Their military was shot, their infrastructure was shot, their resources were quickly drying up and they would not have lasted much longer.  Truman and the rest of the military structure wanted to scare the Russians, to announce to the world that We, the US were the new world power to be dealt with, that is why they dropped the bomb.  All the other reasons,  we are saving American lives, they would not surrender prior to dropping the bomb, and the umpteen other fairy tales told to students to maintain their faith in a brutal system are just after the fact rationalization for taking the human race one step closer to its own destruction all in the name of greed and hunger to rule the world. 

  Second, as for 9/11 and the tragic events of that day.  They were tragic, it was frightening, but it has been whitewashed from the start.  We have taken the lessons to be learned from that day and thrown them out and left only the fear and hatred.  There was, and still is little to no talk of how the US government, through the CIA and other governmental agencies, provided funding, arms and supplies to the mujahideen(sp?) in Afghanistan, of which Bin Laden was a part, in the 80's when they were fighting the Russians.  How after the Russians left we left that country to starve and suffer under the Taliban's brutal thumb, much like what we did to Central and South America during that same period.  See Pinochet for starters.  Irony of Ironies, the US-backed coup that put Pinochet in power happened on Sept. 11, 1973.

The fact that 9/11 was blowback from US dealings in the middle east for the past 50 odd years is rarely discussed, and not even mentioned on the ministry of truth voice box.   We were not to blame, we were innocent victims, blah, blah, blah.  The people who died, the people who risked their lives were mostly innocent, and my heart goes out to all those who lost someone that day.  We instituted brutal dictatorships like the Shah, we paid rabid dogs like Bin Laden to fight the Russians, and we got burned, but that is all lost, glossed over like some insignificant detail.  Orwell said it best, "he who controls the past, controls the future.  He who controls the present controls the past." 

GreenMonsta

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2008, 09:12:38 PM »
Blah Blah Blah.  OK i get it I missed most of this thread due to being away since the 11th. I've read it so far and agree with alot of what most of you have to say. First we as a country are not infallible, we make moves and choices that have very real goals. Supporting Arabs to fight commies fighting Vietnam to stop the "domino effect" ext ext. Every world power has done so since the beginning of time. It happens. Would you says that those 30,000 people who died on Sep11 had a direct effect on how we were acting in other countries before the attacks? Did they decide to bomb other countries and support countries with weapons and money? Nope, they were working in a financial area in a non-military setting. Those atrocities that this county committed are more commonly than not involved in some military action against another military. Did we bomb Japan just to watch them burn and then glorify ourselves for doing it? I don't remember that. No we acted against another country we were at war with. I don't care if it was to scare the commies or not WE WERE AT WAR. The reality is we ARE AT WAR. Are you saying that attempting to destroy the Taliban's infrastructure of taking Saddam out of office weren't good things. Oh right mind our own business. So if you were born in Iraq and Saddam's a-hole son decided to kill you and your extended family and friends on a whim (they did this on a regular basis) that you wouldn't want someone with the ability to help stop what was happening? So we are wrong. Ok we went under false pretenses, I don't even care if we went because Bush wanted to finish daddy's business. All I care about is a tyrant who committed genocide is dead and we are at least attempting to help. Maybe we shouldn't force democracy on them, again I don't care. Saddam is dead. 9/11 happened, don't forget they wanted to kill working people to have the best effect. Well they succeeded and we got pissed and rightfully so. So forget about moving on. We are still at war with both Iraq and Afghanistan. Are you saying to forget about our friends and family who are there right now fighting because of 9/11. What about the fact that some of the posters here have either been there or will be putting their lives on the line to go to this country who attacked us and maybe we should move on. Why don't you go to the nearest military bast I don't care what branch and tell them to move on. See what they say. Dint forget this forum is about discussion so if you were to tell us you were pro whatever we don't care. That's why were here, to discuss. I may sound all pissed here but don't ever stop posting because of it. Also I haven't re-0read my post so it may jump around because I was a little worked up when I wrote it so sorry if it doesn't make sense. Don't tell me to move on while our friends are dying for it. You might be able to move on but I cant.
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2008, 09:32:16 PM »
Wow.  The recon teams that were sent to the beacheads in Japan in preparation for our ground assault there would disagree with you quite a bit.  A country that ready to surrender does not dig in like that.  But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I just checked your facts, and it appears Japan was trying to convince the Soviets to switch sides, not surrender.  In fact, Stalin encouraged the use of the atomic bomb (which in no way surprises me, that man was horrible).  There was even a final ultimatum of surrender given after the Potsdam meeting that was ignored by Japan.  They were hoping to hurt us so bad that we would give up and leave them be, and if it weren't for the A-bombs that may have been what happened.  Thank you for playing, though.  I am less inclined to dispute parts of the second half of your post, as I know America became a little irrational about fighting Communism.  Unfortunately, mistakes were made, and some US backed leaders were bad.  Everyone picks the wrong side sometimes.  Would you have preferred these countries become communist states?  
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2008, 11:05:31 PM »
  You have to ask yourself if those "real goals" are for our benefit.  In my opinion they are not.  They are so the top 5 or 10% can maintain dominion and control over the rest of us unwashed masses.  They are so companies like British-Petroleom, Dutch-Shell and other US friendly companies can have no-bid contracts to siphon off billions of dollars of another country's resources.  Like they did in southeast Asia, and Central and South America.  So that companies like KBR, Halliburton, Blackwater, and Bechtel, to name a few, can have cost-plus contracts to fleece the American people out of billions of dollars.  Money better spent perhaps on say the abysmal education system in this country.  For example, they rent out 5-star hotel compounds in Kuwait or elsewhere and lease, LEASE mind you,  fully loaded S.U.V.'s for each and every employee over there at $7,500/month to sit in said compound parking lot because most of those employees do not have to leave the grounds to do their jobs.  This so that the companies can charge the US taxpayer more money and make more profits.  They have little or no oversight by any governmental body.  Apparently, a few million dollars a year for the CEO's were not enough to fill the umpteen swimming pools at there umpteen multi-million dollar mansions across the globe.  

  I am truly grateful for the service that the men and women of the armed services do, but I, for one minute do not believe they are fighting for my freedom, my safety, or their country.  Before anyone blows up at this and gives me the usual diatribe about protecting us from some unknown\known threat let me explain.  I am just as likely to get shot by some random criminal as I am to die in a "terrorist" attack.  If the so-called leaders of this country were truly worried about Nuclear attack or WMD we would be more concerned with N. Korea, Pakistan, India, or any other country that posses such weapons, not Iraq.  Iraq was the straw man, the paper tiger, easily pushed aside with little actual danger to anyone other than the men and women they sent over there to be targets.  I do not doubt for a minute that most over there and around this country believe they are fighting for Mom, baseball, and apple pie, but the truth is that they have been lied too, just like everyone else.  The main goal for policy-makers, both liberal and conservative, is to maintain control over the worlds most valuable finite resource, Oil.  They made this clear when they first called the Iraq Invasion, Operation Iraqi Liberation, O.I.L.  Talk about the Freudian slip of the century.    

  Suddam was an evil SOB, yes, and he was our evil SOB for nearly two decades.  The gassing of the Kurds in the 80's  Bush and the like were so quick to point to as evidence for invasion, had made in the USA on the canisters. (Not literally).  When the UN and international community wanted to condemn Suddam for his actions, the US, along with Israel, ran blocker in the Security Counsel to prevent that from happening.  

   As for the whole atrocities being just military versus military, what about places like Nicaragua, where many of the same people in charge now directed forces to attack "soft targets" like food collectives and health clinics.  Those were definitely not military targets.  This is after a UN Security Counsel resolution was vetoed by the US which would have called attention to the atrocities going on at the behest of US handlers.

 I guess the long and short of it is just this.  I am so sick and tired of most American's thinking this country can do no wrong.  That it is only torture if it is done by someone we don't like. It is only aggression when it is done without our approval.  It is amazing the amount of things the government does in our name and for our protection.  

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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2008, 11:13:09 PM »
That would have made a lot of sense, Japan surrendering to a country they were not even at war with. And also not surrendering after the first bomb was dropped, if surrender was what they intended all along.

Well, maybe they did want to surrender in some way that would save as much face as possible. Maybe they really had wanted to surrender as early as 1944 as some sources say. If so, they sure took their sweet time about it.
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2008, 11:25:47 PM »
But the Japanese cultural view on honor wouldn't let them surrender until the for 100% sure they KNEW they couldn't win.  After the first bomb was dropped they assumed that there was NO WAY the U.S. had another.  So they assumed that after that they could win.
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2008, 11:26:39 PM »
Wow.  The recon teams that were sent to the beacheads in Japan in preparation for our ground assault there would disagree with you quite a bit.  A country that ready to surrender does not dig in like that.  But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I just checked your facts, and it appears Japan was trying to convince the Soviets to switch sides, not surrender.  In fact, Stalin encouraged the use of the atomic bomb (which in no way surprises me, that man was horrible).  There was even a final ultimatum of surrender given after the Potsdam meeting that was ignored by Japan.  They were hoping to hurt us so bad that we would give up and leave them be, and if it weren't for the A-bombs that may have been what happened.  Thank you for playing, though.  I am less inclined to dispute parts of the second half of your post, as I know America became a little irrational about fighting Communism.  Unfortunately, mistakes were made, and some US backed leaders were bad.  Everyone picks the wrong side sometimes.  Would you have preferred these countries become communist states?  

I think you need to check your sources.  The US had broken the Japanese codes very early in the war.  They intercepted Tojo's communique that asked the Russians to intercede and speak with the US about a potential peace.  The unconditional surrender was the only hang up apparently.  Plus look at the US Strategic Bombing Survey from 1946 that discusses the effects of the bomb.  Japan would have had to surrender as early as November or December even if the US did not invade and the USSR did not declare war against Japan in early August.  I am not saying that the bomb didn't influence the timing of the surrender, but the writing was on the wall, everyone knew it and they still dropped it. It did give the Japanese leadership the opportunity to save face but at the cost of hundreds of  thousands of civilian lives.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/documents/index.php?documentdate=1946-06-30&documentid=7-1&studycollectionid=&pagenumber=1
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 11:30:33 PM by Renkar »

GreenMonsta

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2008, 11:29:03 PM »
Ok listen, I for one know that our country can do wrong. Every country can. What does it matter if these conflicts are started to keep the top 5-10% in power? What do you mean you don't think this benefits us? You don't think securing a steady supply of oil is in our best interest. Right, does every thing you own and use run on bio-fuel? The thing is the way our social and economic structure is the top 5-10% don't really matter in these events. Only in the respect that they would be relaced by someone else. I may not agree with you on some things but I can find that the idea behind this is the same. This country isn't imperfect and yes we make mistakes with peoples lives. I think people feel and talk about the America they want, they defend this thing they were thought about. About a country that stands for something. Freedom is the most popular word used in American propaganda. I for one am aware that this county isn't perfect in any definition of the word yet I am proud to be a citizen with more opportunities than most countries. I am glad to be a soldier who fights in this military not to "Protect mommy and daddy" but because if there weren't soldiers to be in the military then we wouldn't have this country at all. Oh and just to let you know most of the soldiers I know don't join to "protect mommy and daddy" they join to protect the others fighting. The other soldiers and their families because as long as were fighting all families are at risk of loosing someone. Any why should my brother go and die? Why am I better than him. He doesn't believe in this war but he believes in this country and military. Why shouldn't I be there too? That's what a lot of soldiers feel.
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Renkar

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2008, 11:42:45 PM »
GM,
 First, I am truly sorry about your loss, and I by no means want to disparage the sacrifice of your family or any of the families who have lost someone, but I think it is atrocious that the talking heads, and the leaders of this country try to sell this war as anything but a war of aggression.  Something that the soldiers have no control over, I understand that.  My beef is with those in charge, not those on the ground.  My beef is that we are sitting in the mother of all Orwellian nightmares and few seem to notice or care.   

No, everything I own does not run on bio-fuel, yes, securing oil is for our benefit, but that benefit is secondary to the real goals.  Maybe if we spent the billions of dollars on education and R and D for alternate power sources than we do on an invasion or occupation that serves the Masters your brother doesn't have to go die in someone else's war. 

GreenMonsta

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2008, 11:52:22 PM »
First dont say sorry. Its not my family or my brother that I lost. I was speaking in the whole my meaning everyone type thing. Tell me you dont know someone whos served. I know you know someone. Its closed to home when you serve in the military because everyone is like you so you feel connected with them. I get what your saying though. Yes we might have wanted to think about invading Iraq. Ok I cant justify that I can only defend staying there, pulling out would be stupid. Should we have hit Afghanistan? Do you think that was wrong?
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Necroben

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2008, 03:24:00 AM »
miyabi, I would like to add my apologies if I sounded harsh.  It was not meant to be.  While we may not agree I would never fault you or anyone else simply for disagreement.  Once again my apologies.
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2008, 06:32:16 AM »
miyabi, I would like to add my apologies if I sounded harsh.  It was not meant to be.  While we may not agree I would never fault you or anyone else simply for disagreement.  Once again my apologies.
No problem.  I think I was getting a bit over-fervent anyway. ha ha.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2008, 07:14:09 AM »
Renkar, we are hardly in the mother of all Orwellian nightmares.  Trust me, it's gonna get worse.

Secondly, the argument that the ends justified the means as far as the invasion of Iraq, it's simply flawed.  For multiple reasons.  First, but not necessarily foremost, taking the regime out of power was just a benefit, not the goal.  Securing oil is only useful if we maintain a staggering need for oil, which could be circumnavigated if it wasn't in the best interest of the international corporate entity to continue to sell us a product which needlessly sucks ridiculous amounts of funds out of our population.  You don't think R&D could have made and mass distributed another form of energy.  Hydrogen cells?  Hell, ever heard of the electric car?  That thing worked fine--so fine that people begged and pleaded to be able to keep theirs during the recall.

However, the fact is 9/11 needs to be seen in a different light.  It's been used as propaganda since day one.  I don't know about you, but if I been a civilian casualty like those who were lost, I wouldn't want my death to be maliciously twisted and tongued until it is a symbol of deception--for ANY cause.

People go into the military for many reasons, but the fact of the matter is it is a socio-economic brainwashing that makes people feel the way they feel about the military.  That's why about 60% of the military comes from the bottom two quarters of the socio-economic ladder, why more than a quarter of our enlisted army was raised by a single mother.  It doesn't cheapen their sacrifices, but a large portion of our military is in the military because they have been raised for it, practically bred for it.  They might decide to go into the military for any umpteeth of reasons and a salty uncle who likes it when you pull his finger, but the fact of the matter is they're going into it because the military is needed to keep the war machine running, and the war machine is profit, and the profit benefits everybody in power.

The chances of our country ever being invaded are pretty slim.  We're on a continent set with a bunch of poor countries and a pacifist.   We are too big to take over in a timely manner, and we are very, very wealthy.  We don't need a huge military to keep us safe, like somebody implied.  Also, we have a ton of advanced allies who would be in a very sticky situation if we went under, AND we're (most likely) the number one consuming force in the world.  It doesn't do ANY nation good to watch us go down in flames, despite the fact that many smaller nations say they would like to see just that.  A bare minimum military would be adequate for continental defense against terrorism, and if we put more money into defensive R&D and less into paying ground troops to die to keep the top 10% with 90% of the wealth, we could probably have a pretty strong homeland defense system that was mostly automated.

War in Iraq was not justified.  We got rid of a bad guy.  Great.  Does it do a family better to be killed by their government or a car bomb?  It's a good thing Husein is not in power anymore.  Still doesn't justify what took place to get him out of power.  There are a ton of bad guys we could be stopping.  We aren't.  That being said, the 9/11 attacks were important, the people who were killed should be given our thoughts.  We shouldn't forget it, but we need to think about it differently--as a people. 
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Miyabi

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2008, 07:17:07 AM »
While this topic is being discussed I would like to mention that I fully supported us going into Afghanistan.  I DID NOT however support going into Iraq.  I will probably move out of the country if we try to go into Iran.
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darxbane

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Re: Seven years later...
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2008, 03:42:50 PM »
People still miss the point.  We didn't go into Iraq without diplomacy, we went because diplomacy failed 17 times.  How many times do you draw a line in the sand, only to have it crossed without consequence?  9/11 happened because we did not respond to lesser attacks, and because, like most of Europe still does, we were no longer following through on our threats.  We tried the UN way, but France and Russia were both bought by the Oil for Food scandal (we also found Russian military equipment that was sold to Iraq after the embargo), and Germany had no shame in continuing to provide Saddam with bunkers.  Has anyone stopped to wonder why, besides all the apparent hostility against America by the German and French populace, both countries selected Pro-America leaders in their most recent elections?  Hmmm, maybe we don't hear the whole story about things?  Almost everyone I know admits that the media leans left, and European media is much worse than the US.  When people say this war is about oil, they are right.  It was about stopping a dictator from using his oil reserves to bribe the UN into removing the sanctions against him so he could return to full strength.  Taking over Iraq obviously hasn't done anything to curb oil prices, has it?  I wonder if any of you believe that 9/11 was an inside job, or the Moon landings were faked.
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