Author Topic: Check this out....  (Read 14455 times)

JCHancey

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 01:57:11 AM »
i dont know who Lan is so im gonna have to give it to the dual blade wielding Drizzt. Plus he's got long white hair.

just got back into the whole forums recently, didn't think to check this one until now.
Lan is a hardcore warder in Wheel of Time that would (imo) beat drizzt :P

Now with Palin on the boat I wear my Obama/Biden shirt to school with pride! Ha she scares me more than Hitler... and i hate genocides...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

As for us going into iraq on intelligence.... /facepalm.
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

Elmandr

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 02:18:02 AM »
i dont know who Lan is so im gonna have to give it to the dual blade wielding Drizzt. Plus he's got long white hair.

just got back into the whole forums recently, didn't think to check this one until now.
Lan is a hardcore warder in Wheel of Time that would (imo) beat drizzt :P

Now with Palin on the boat I wear my Obama/Biden shirt to school with pride! Ha she scares me more than Hitler... and i hate genocides...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

As for us going into iraq on intelligence.... /facepalm.

I dont know about that...Drizzt has two swords. Two!

If Palin were president, i can imagine us declaring wore on...i dont know....Italy, for them not accepting her Suit 'n skirt designs she made in the sixth grade.

"I love you."
"you dont. You just think you do because i'm all you know."
"Really? So whats this burning sensation i'm having in my stomach?"
"Too much ale."
"Not love?"
"No. But i can see how you confused the two."
"I don't feel good."
"They do that to you."
"my legs, their numb."
"Hahaha!"
"haha!"

Necroben

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 03:27:40 AM »
If Palin were president, i can imagine us declaring wore on...i dont know....Italy, for them not accepting her Suit 'n skirt designs she made in the sixth grade.

Declarations of War come from the Legislative Branch.
I don't suffer from insanity...  I enjoy every minuet of it!

It's ok to be strange, as long as it's on paper. :)

Elmandr

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 04:46:12 AM »
If Palin were president, i can imagine us declaring wore on...i dont know....Italy, for them not accepting her Suit 'n skirt designs she made in the sixth grade.

Declarations of War come from the Legislative Branch.

Want some barbaque?

since your devouring my joke!

lol.

hows your character coming along?
"I love you."
"you dont. You just think you do because i'm all you know."
"Really? So whats this burning sensation i'm having in my stomach?"
"Too much ale."
"Not love?"
"No. But i can see how you confused the two."
"I don't feel good."
"They do that to you."
"my legs, their numb."
"Hahaha!"
"haha!"

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 06:48:19 AM »
By the way, removing a genocidal maniac from power is not a "social experiment".

Okay, so according to Card we went in to spread democracy and freedom.  I'd say invading a country to see spread ideals in a moderately unfamiliar way is a social experiment.  Secondly

Quote
In late February 2002, the CIA sent former Ambassador Joseph Wilson to investigate reports that Iraq was attempting to purchase additional yellowcake from Niger. Wilson returned and informed the CIA that reports of yellowcake sales to Iraq were "unequivocally wrong."...On May 1, 2005 the "Downing Street memo" was published in The Sunday Times. It contained an overview of a secret July 23, 2002 meeting among UK Labour government, defense, and intelligence figures who discussed the build-up to the Iraq war — including direct references to classified U.S. policy of the time. The memo stated, "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."...On September 18, 2002, George Tenet briefed Bush that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. Bush dismissed this top-secret intelligence from Saddam's inner circle which was approved by two senior CIA officers, but it turned out to be completely accurate....Indeed, Colin Powell, in his address to the U.N. Security Council just prior to the war, made reference to the aluminum tubes. But a report released by the Institute for Science and International Security in 2002 reported that it was highly unlikely that the tubes could be used to enrich uranium. Powell later admitted he had presented an inaccurate case to the United Nations on Iraqi weapons, and the intelligence he was relying on was, in some cases, "deliberately misleading."

Wikipedia's page on "Iraq War" (second Gulf War), all sources are cited.

Sounds like a lot of bad intelligence to me.  But that's a different story, anyway--the point is Card acts as though it was our ultimate goal the entire invasion was to spread freedom and democracy.  Seems like, even if our intelligence was assumed to be good (not something I am granting), we went in for self preservation or selfish means, not for spreading democracy.  Card sugar coats it because he wont come of as convincingly at attacking one group if the alternative group is seen as incompetent.  It's dishonest editorializing, just like most liberal snuff is complete bullshit in the same manner.  I figure he's just about as good as the people he's bashing because he is doing most the things he bashes.

Also, a massively mandatory military would require some shifting of policy (not all people in the military are troops, too--especially since in a mandatory military policy most the troops would be stationed at home like a national reserve, since I can't imagine we would ever actually use our people, God forbid, in actual peacekeeping missions unless it was cried for by the western international community).  I understand that.  I still feel it is something that should be looked into.  Surely you aren't suggesting, Green, that people who are drafted are inadequate to serve?  I believe you've been in the military--every aspect of the military is geared towards making people into those who fit into the military.  I mean, they hire psychologists to work out ways to take people who would not normally be a good soldier and train them into being who you meet in the military.

It's not a perfect idea, but I think it could be implemented well and I think it would solve a lot of problems.  That's just one person's opinion.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

darxbane

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 05:48:23 PM »
Funny, the same Wikipedia article also references the yellow cake uranium the already had before 1990, and that Hans Blix himself stated that SEVERAL CHEMICAL WEAPONS CACHES WERE UNACCOUNTED FOR and that Iraq had not made a GENUINE EFFORT TO COMPLY WITH UN REGULATIONS.  So, there was intelligence that said both yes and no.  Bush decided not to take the chance.  Bin Laden should have been dealt with in the '90's and we paid for that mistake.  We needed to show that we would not be complacent anymore.  I am not at all surprised that you only took the information to support your case, but I was a little surprised that you actually referenced an website that disproves your point more than proves it. 
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2008, 07:38:47 PM »
I guess I don't see intelligence about a state in 1990 being equivalent to intelligence about a state in 2002.  My mistake, I forgot Husein had a time machine.  I never said the first gulf war wasn't warranted.

If Bush (and his administration) was trying to stop Husein because of a fear of weapons of mass destruction, I don't think he would have found it necesary to fix the intelligence around his policy of invasion.  It seems like the policy of invasion would have been fixed around the intelligence.  That's generally how "reacting" to something works.  It seems to me like if the administration was less fixed on going to war before they had the intelligence to back it up, they might not have blatantly ignored good intelligence, dismissing it because it doesn't fit with their world view.  And, I don't know, maybe that wouldn't have happened if Bush didn't have people censoring everything he sees and everybody he talks about, and if the administration didn't completely surround itself with yes men who think exactly like them.  That probably would have led to a little more "discussion" about invasion, and little less "ignoring information from our own intelligence divisions."
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

darxbane

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 08:36:25 PM »
The point is that he hid things successfully in the past, and there was intelligence both for and against WMD's.  The weapons inspectors were still finding illegal weapons in 2002, and the Hans Blix comment was made in 2003!  We could not afford inaction anymore, bottom line.  There were plenty of other reasons to go into Iraq and get him out.  You can use hindsight and Monday morning quarterback all you want, but the fact that our lack of response to unconfirmed intelligence resulted in the 9/11 attacks demanded we be more proactive.  I bet if you researched hard enough you could have found plenty of intelligence that countered what we now know was the plan to hijack planes and fly them into buildings.  You should be more outraged that Clinton spent 8 years allowing Al-Qaeda to practice bomb US targets all over the globe and responded with a couple of random cruise missiles instead of making a true response.  Clinton was a Democrat, though, so he gets a pass, right?
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Necroben

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2008, 03:22:15 AM »
If Palin were president, i can imagine us declaring wore on...i dont know....Italy, for them not accepting her Suit 'n skirt designs she made in the sixth grade.

Declarations of War come from the Legislative Branch.

Want some barbaque?

since your devouring my joke!

lol.

hows your character coming along?

Haha! ;)  Yeah... I do that.  He's coming along, I'm working on the plotting for this story at the moment.
I don't suffer from insanity...  I enjoy every minuet of it!

It's ok to be strange, as long as it's on paper. :)

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2008, 10:21:30 PM »
The point is that he hid things successfully in the past, and there was intelligence both for and against WMD's.  The weapons inspectors were still finding illegal weapons in 2002, and the Hans Blix comment was made in 2003!  We could not afford inaction anymore, bottom line.  There were plenty of other reasons to go into Iraq and get him out.  You can use hindsight and Monday morning quarterback all you want, but the fact that our lack of response to unconfirmed intelligence resulted in the 9/11 attacks demanded we be more proactive.  I bet if you researched hard enough you could have found plenty of intelligence that countered what we now know was the plan to hijack planes and fly them into buildings.  You should be more outraged that Clinton spent 8 years allowing Al-Qaeda to practice bomb US targets all over the globe and responded with a couple of random cruise missiles instead of making a true response.  Clinton was a Democrat, though, so he gets a pass, right?

Ugh, in a hurry.  Clinton didn't set things up as well as he should have, but he wasn't the one in power at the time of the attacks, nor was he the one to ignore important memos, like one entitled something along the lines of "Bin Laden Determined to Attack the US".  If this administration had done something like oversee the longest period of economic expansion in our country's history, I would be much more forgiving for its shortcomings.  Instead, it has worked around the constitution, made false information or hidden true information, fired people because of alternate political views, given important jobs to unqualified people (FEMA, anyone?), and Bush had taken 250 vacation days by August 2003.  By 1999 Clinton had taken only 152.  The fact is, I don't like Clinton more than Bush because he's a liberal--I like him more because he screwed up less (or at least to my knowledge he did, since I was all of 12 at the end of his presidency, I can only go by what I've learned, which isn't a whole ton since he had an end of office approval rating of 65%, the highest since WWII--which means he doesn't get a lot of post-presidency smearing).

Was he perfect?  No.  I think he was better that Bush.  That being said, I think his wife would have been equally incompetent as Bush and I would have refused to vote for her under almost any circumstance, and she's a liberal.

Edit: Content (Language)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 04:24:44 AM by GorgontheWonderCow »
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2008, 10:39:28 PM »
Oh snap Gorgon said the "F" word. That's new to the forum. Are we all going to loose our ability to articulate our thoughts to the point that we are swearing because it was the most powerful word we could think of? Who knows maybe it's catching right now. I try to not post here because people with more knowledge on the subject have better conversation and I enjoy reading it. The point is alot of people don't post but they do read the posts so lets not get too carried away.
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 12:39:04 AM »
I'll go ahead and apologize if I offended anybody, and I'll edit it out if somebody complains--but otherwise I'd like to leave it, if only for the fact that swear words are part of language and are often treated as though they are less legitimate.  They are words to express extremes, and I think they can be used just as beautifully as any prose.  I don't see a problem using them, nor do I see a problem with others hearing them (and I do see a problem censoring them), but since this is a public forum which is privately owned, I'll go ahead and recant if I get any legitimate complaints.  I'd like to note I didn't swear at anybody, no did I use it in any sort of angry rage--I just used it as a descriptor.  I think there's a big difference between that and cursing at someone or cursing out of blind rage.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2008, 12:53:33 AM »
Hey Gorgon I get it. Ok cool you didn't use it offensively, personally I don't even care that you used it. We have all used our share of swear words in our time. I don't really find it an issue when the conversation is between adults who understand the placement and usage. The issue comes when someone who may not understand comes along and creates an issue out of it. I for one have read the forum rules where they state that this is a family environment and usage of words such as the one you used is prohibited. How could I let it pass when people are called out for double posting. Its not that your wrong its just rude. You seem intelligent enough to think of other words that would describe extremes. And I find it funny that I am the one to say this, I for one have a problem with regulating my vocabulary to appropriate situations. I think that's why I said something about it.
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2008, 04:23:22 AM »
Like I said, I wasn't sure if you were genuinely offended or anything; I'll modify it immediately after I post this.  I'm not standing in a public square and I can't word things however I want.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

www.kinasemovestheaudio.com for a good time!

GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2008, 01:34:49 PM »
I know and I don't think I would say I was offended but I would at least like to follow the rules of the forum seeing how we all enjoy it. The last thing I want is for an intelligent poster like yourself to in anyway be looked at negativly by any Mod or Admin. You seem to have been here long enough so I don't need to talk to you about it. Happy posting :)
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"