Author Topic: Check this out....  (Read 14413 times)

JCHancey

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Check this out....
« on: August 27, 2008, 12:33:04 AM »
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

Archon

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 10:56:52 PM »
I think that he raises a couple of interesting points. First, and this is something that I have long disliked about academia, is that education seems to foster criticism more than it seeks possibilities. Don't misunderstand, I think that being skeptical is an essential part of thinking clearly. However, it is only an equal part. If you only encourage doubt, then you are frozen in place, unable to act for lack of a defining truth. The reality of the matter is that very often, in practical situations, you lose as much from inaction as you do from wrongful action. You need the courage to be able to act, despite the fact that there will probably be negative consequences for your actions. There always are, whether they take effect today, or ten years from now. There are always benefits, too. Whether or not they outweigh the detriments is up for grabs. But when you aren't satisfied with a situation, then change is the only possible solution. In just about every situation, that means that somebody must do something that is not already being done.

He also talked about how academics seem to despise the use of the military. I agree that, in many cases, open military force can be more harmful than helpful. In other cases, it can be plainly ineffective. However, it can also be very expedient, and necessary. I have seen a lot of literature recently about poverty throughout the world. Much of this is because of massive corruption in the governments of, for example, African nations. Some of the wealthiest people in the world have money because they stole huge amounts from governments of nations that are starving to death. Since they control the nation's wealth and military, not to mention its food, it is almost impossible for a revolution to form from within. This is a perfect example of a problem that has to be solved militarily. It won't be solved through economic sanctions, since the goods from these countries are too valuable to embargo, or even tax heavily. I can't think of a possible social sanction, since these nations don't generally wield a lot of prestige in the world anyway.  Military action is the only feasible option at that point. People say that they want to cure problems like world hunger, but they won't accept that sometimes people have to die for the rest of the world to live better lives.

On the other hand, I thought it ironic that he found time to throw insults at the people he deemed name-callers. Okay, time to pass it off to someone else.
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Comfortable Madness

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 01:22:19 PM »
IMO this was a really good article. Spot on in calling out the "intellectual elite" for being crippled by indecisiveness. An indecisiveness that leads and has lead to inactivity. People in America see the horrible situations throughout the world and know that people just shouldn't have to live that way. They call out and protest that these things should be fixed but that is as far as they are willing to go. Thinking that somehow paper signs and thoughts of doing good will actually make things happen. When someone finally decides to act they completely turn face and now call for the head of the man/woman who had the courage to act. They look at it and say to themselves " wait a minute....if we really want to change the world we are going to have to work for it....to actually sweat, bleed, and die for it....well in that case scratch my name off the list I would much rather think of doing good than actually do good"....
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

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JCHancey

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 11:49:06 PM »
It really made me look more into my support for obama, now i really don't know which one is worse/better. gotta love OSC
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2008, 01:19:42 AM »
Don't question your supports just yet. Reality is I loved the article but if all it takes is a well written article to sway your vote then you might as well not vote because your not informed enouph to be strong in your convictions. I think that's part of what the article is getting at. We as everyday people (I say "we" very loosely) are generally under informed. We don't get all the info required to make a good decisionon about who should run this country and then companies like MTV try to get all the uninformed youngsters to vote. Oh sure we have resources that we can research the parties and make an informed decision but how many of "us" actually do that. I'll tell you it's probably not the majority. I'm not saying that this article is entirely right I just feel that it has a lot of good views that can be embraced by everyone in our bipartisan government. It doesn't matter if your Republican or Democrat all that matters is that you look at the facts available and make good strong choices. Don't be swayed do not falter. Stand strong in what you feel is right. And if you don't know whats right find out because the future of our nation might just depend on the education of the masses.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2008, 01:30:01 AM »
Oh and I took a quote for my signature. It was an impressive article and it makes me want to go and get those books, its funny because I've never been interested in reading anything other than fantasy before this. Thanks Jakobus for posting it.
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GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2008, 04:41:16 AM »
 "We leap into vast social experiments with no evidence of their efficacy or necessity"

I thought it was amusing that Card spent the entirety of the article defending the invasion of Iraq, which is perfectly described by his later statement, which I quoted above.

He attacks the intellectual elite with valid statements, and then ruins his validity by pretending the economic elite and/or "conservatives" are any better.  RARELY do people surround themselves with the views of others, and it is distressing that our government doesn't have a way to force opposing views into the white house.  Card accuses the social elite of being discriminatory of opposing views, and neglects the fact that Bush has nobody of an opposing view on his cabinet, and his administration went through that whole, "firing officials because they don't agree with what I think" phase, and they ask for political affiliation before hiring a person for any job under the administration... So essentially Card, who spends the entire article ridiculing the "intellectual elite" for being hypocritical and praising President Bush and his administration is, in fact, doing the exact same thing that he claims to be so disgusted by.  Right down to the name-calling.

As for the "intellectual elite" not being willing to go to war, I believe there are serious issues with all sides of the die there.  On the one side, the Bush Administration went into a war on false information (which was KNOWN to be false), and yet Card ignores this fact and claims the war in Iraq was always based on the concept of spreading freedom and democracy, yet our reasons for being in Iraq, according to the administration in charge, has changed from WMDs all the way down to spreading freedom and democracy over time.  Yet Card has the gull to attack Obama for changing his mind on issues--all politicians change their minds on issues according to what is popular.  Isn't the the nature of a democracy?  In a democracy, don't we want our elected officials to change their minds as we do, so they are actually representing how we feel rather than how they feel?  In an ideal representative democracy, the politician in question would ALWAYS vote with the people he represents, whether they be wrong or right in his/her mind.

However, sometimes force is needed (though usually it is more than adequate to THREATEN force).  The problem isn't that we aren't using force in Darfur, but that we aren't putting any TROOPS in Darfur for peacekeeping reasons.   If my memory serves me, there were only TWO UN peacekeeping troops in Darfur in 2007.  We aren't to send troops and force a solution, but to send non-combative troops to force temporary peace until a resolution can be found, only to assault when one side becomes aggressive, not picking sides in the issue, but only helping he who is being attacked at the time in order to persuade both sides to not attack, for fear of heavy losses.

And politicians, especially those who tend to agree with Card, send in other people's children to war while they rarely have anything invested in the war themselves, other than profit (and perhaps professional dignity, which few of them have, anyway).  We could solve two problems with one stone if we would enact a mandatory service in the military, like Isreal.  Not only would we be less likely to go into unimportant wars because those in charge, both the intellectual and economic elite, would HAVE to consider if the war is worth life because their family and friends' families would be on the line.  In addition, we would have more troops in order to create powerful peace-keeping missions, instead of not having the troops to go around because we are already invested in too many other wars/occupations.  Plus, our entire country would be a backup reserve of military force for emergencies, everybody would know how to defend themselves (and in a non-lethal way, unlike having a firearm), which would lower crime rates.

If we are to believe that we need a leader of strong conviction who will blunderingly charge into battle for causes, and never admit mistake, we might as well just suit ourselves a dictator.  The nature of a democracy is that those in charge represent US, not their own values or convictions.  Our leader should always consider what WE want as a people more heavily than what he or she believes should happen. 

Sometimes democracy must be overlooked in a moment of dictatorial power in extreme situations where action is needed but the people cannot see--this is a rare occasion and, in all honesty, may be a rare occasion which is not missed.

Modification:  Thanks a LOT for posting this article, Jakobus--good catch and good idea to post it.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 04:56:13 AM by GorgontheWonderCow »
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2008, 08:22:37 AM »
I think true leaders need to always do what they think is right and not always try to guess what their people want. Politicians so often promise to do whatever they think will get them elected. That just leads to hypocrisy. I think a leader should stand by his or her convictions (but also needs to make practical allowances for circumstances, and needs to be able to admit mistakes and learn from them) and not just try to do whatever they can to keep power. If public opinion turns against them, that's what elections are for.

Tindwyl said something similar in The Well of Ascension, but I can't find the reference right now.
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Elmandr

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2008, 10:00:30 AM »
i dont know who Lan is so im gonna have to give it to the dual blade wielding Drizzt. Plus he's got long white hair.
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"Not love?"
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Reaves

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2008, 02:41:41 PM »
  In a democracy, don't we want our elected officials to change their minds as we do, so they are actually representing how we feel rather than how they feel?  In an ideal representative democracy, the politician in question would ALWAYS vote with the people he represents, whether they be wrong or right in his/her mind.

However, sometimes force is needed (though usually it is more than adequate to THREATEN force).  We aren't to send troops and force a solution, but to send non-combative troops to force temporary peace until a resolution can be found, only to assault when one side becomes aggressive, not picking sides in the issue, but only helping he who is being attacked at the time in order to persuade both sides to not attack, for fear of heavy losses.

  We could solve two problems with one stone if we would enact a mandatory service in the military, like Isreal.  Not only would we be less likely to go into unimportant wars because those in charge, both the intellectual and economic elite, would HAVE to consider if the war is worth life because their family and friends' families would be on the line.  In addition, we would have more troops in order to create powerful peace-keeping missions, instead of not having the troops to go around because we are already invested in too many other wars/occupations.  Plus, our entire country would be a backup reserve of military force for emergencies, everybody would know how to defend themselves (and in a non-lethal way, unlike having a firearm), which would lower crime rates.

I believe that any elected official should always vote and say exactly what they believe. (yeah, right :P Im really not as naive as I sound) That way they are actually representing their constituents if they get voted in. This way the people will actually get what they voted for, not just someone who is saying what he/she thinks the people want to hear.

I like your ideas about sending troops to force a peace, but sometimes that isn't the right or practical thing to do. War should always be a last resort and peace is always the first objective but there are some nations/factions out there that need to be stopped. For example, Iran has declared it would like to wipe Israel off the face of the planet. If tensions rise to the point where Israel actually attacks Iran preemptively, does that mean we should send in peace-keeping troops to support Iran and force a truce? I don't think so. The underdog is not always the good guy.

I also like your ideas about a mandatory military service (draft?). I see what you are saying about everyone being able to fight if needed and I also see the benefits on crime. However if we were to get into a major war with another country (lets use China for this example) I don't think we would be the best prepared. Right now, we have the best-trained, best-equipped military in the world, because we have a volunteer military. Often volunteers can be expected to re-enlist, meaning more experience and skill in the military, as opposed to a draft in which each unit needs to be trained and in which the investment in training is lost as soon as the tour of duty is over.  Also morale can be expected to be far higher in a volunteer unit than one that is fighting because it was forced to. Without our advantage in experience and training it really comes down to who has the most troops. A nation like China has far more citizens than we do, meaning it could potentially "out-draft" us, which is a situation we don't want to be in.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 02:43:54 PM by Reaves »
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

GorgonlaVacaTremendo

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2008, 06:18:39 PM »
Valid points, but I think those people who reenlist now would be just as likely to reenlist if the service was mandatory for everybody.  Also, Israel has one of the best trained armed forces in the world (which happens to include one of the most versatile martial arts in the world), and they have a policy of mandatory service.  And if there were a situation in which we were to get into a war with China (which is impossible, because just as we are dependent on China, they are dependent on us--we fuel their growth, it isn't a likely possibility in the near future), it definitely would not hurt to have more troops.  The only two countries who could out draft us as are China and India, both of whom are poor countries compared to us who do not have nearly the resources we have to fight.  Also, both are countries it is unforeseeable that we would have to fight given the current world order (especially not on American soil).  The idea isn't getting more troops (that's just a bonus)--the idea is getting every person in the nation to have experienced the military and to know people in the military.

The idea behind peacekeeping missions is stopping sect on sect genocide, etc.  In a case like Iran vs Israel, we are clearly aligned with one nation, and have been clearly aligned against the other.  The side we would pick in that situation is clear--that wouldn't be a peace-keeping mission, that would be defending an ally against our enemy.

I can understand wanted an elected official following his or her own convictions, I just believe democracy would ideally work for the people.  I don't like the idea of voting for somebody so they can think for the masses, I like the idea of voting for somebody who will listen to the people he or she represents.
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
Robert Heinlein

"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."
Edmund Burke

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darxbane

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2008, 09:54:13 PM »
So we're back to the intelligence being known to be incorrect, do we?  4 different countries, each with their own independant intelligence, had the same belief that WMD's were in Iraq.  Saddam's own Generals have testified that even they believed Saddam had stockpiled weapons, and were only told otherwise a month before the invasion.  That, coupled with the picture a friend of mine showed me of mustard gas containers found in a palace (which he took himself), along with the weapons-grade plastic explosives stolen from that base in Northern Iraq four years ago (weapons grade meaning it is used in implosive-explosive devices, otherwise known as nuclear weapons), lead me to believe that Saddam's ruse was so well done that he got himself attacked.  More importantly, the stuff that was found, including all the cash stashed everywhere, proves the theory that he could have had working WMD's within 6 months to  a year of all sanctions being dropped, which was his goal when bribing France and Russia with Oil for Food vouchers.  Attacking Iraq was necessary.  I smile at the Irony that Osama's attempt at scaring us away from the Middle East actually enboldened us and helped us realize that we couldn't just sit there and say "please don't do that again" 16 times while our "allies" are being bribed into submission.  By the way, removing a genocidal maniac from power is not a "social experiment".
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2008, 11:01:29 PM »
Darx we should hang out, that was right on the money.

My question was pointed out by Reaves already but I will make it blunt. Does anyone know the cost of training an American soldier? I got this from WikiAnswers and I'm aware that it may be inaccurate but its close to what I was told when in training
Quote
Basic US military training is anywhere from 3-6 months, which translates to ~$4,000 minimum just to pay a single trainee. Add in food, lodging, and equipment at government-contracted rates and that cost easily doubles. That doesn't include any of the support staff necessary to train, equip, or manage the logistics of a group of recruits. No good source for it, but its generally said that each front-line soldier requires eight additional folks to support them... not quite applicable to basic training so call it a really conservative 2:1 ratio of trainee to support staff, tack on the fact that support staff is probably averages at least four years of service, and three months of training a single soldier jumps easily jumps to $10,000. Once a soldier completes minimum training they're good for... pretty much nothing except wearing the uniform and being able to complete further training.

Now imagine what the cost of creating a mandatory military term. So lets say everyone who is fit mind you because they don't take everyone contrary to popular belief joins the military. That also includes all benefits like medical and educational. That is if you don't want them to change the benefits packages. So then after this you send all these people who if given the choice would have not joined the military, to watch eachothers backs while your bankrupting the economy trying to support them. That makes sense. The idea is sound but unpractical. Yes I think we should be involved in police action around the world but no I don't want some bum who doesn't want to be there watching my back. More soldiers die because their buddy isn't paying attention than because they aren't. Being an all volunteer military should be something we are proud of. It should be something that we look at and say "hey look at all those men an women who are willing to put it all on the line for this country". I wouldn't sacrifice that for anything.
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Reaves

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 11:34:56 PM »
yeah i think currently a single Marine's equipment comes to about $16k.
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

GreenMonsta

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Re: Check this out....
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2008, 11:55:06 PM »
Equipment is crazy expensive. That isnt even really included in the cost estimation because the equipent belongs to the military but they still have to equip every soldier so you could take that 10k and round it up to about 26k
"No signs of anything that could cause even a slight case of death"

"He's a paraplegic whats he gonna do, bite us?"