Author Topic: How much of the prophecies can we trust?  (Read 2406 times)

happyman

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 828
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« on: July 11, 2008, 11:21:12 PM »
Hello everybody.  This is my first posting in this forum.  I've read most of the recent posts, though, and have skimmed through the archives.  In addition, I've read Mistborn 1 & 2 and all the annotations.  While reading through the threads, I couldn't help but wonder if anyone had set up a particular place to discuss what we know of the prophecies and which ones can be trusted.  I have some ideas on the subject, but was wondering if there was a thread already set up to discuss this.  I would hate to contribute to unnecessary rehashing.  I do believe there are some things we can know and some we can believe with a degree of uncertainty.

Nature hates being reified.

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 11:52:01 PM »
i think we can trust all of Alendi's logbook, simply because i don't think Sanderson would have planned a relatively minor plot point, that Ruin can manipulate written words, that far ahead of time.
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Qarlin

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 267
  • Fell Points: 0
  • The idiotic cock-eyed flum-dummery!
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2008, 12:03:15 AM »
Sure he could have. But did Ruin need to change it? It seems he didn't change it, but we really don't know for certain. Kwaan knows of things that have changed just in the time after he found Alendi, but had any changed before then?

Because we know Ruin can change things, but we don't know how much, how often, or when it started to do so.

JCHancey

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Formerly known as Jakobus
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2008, 12:41:36 AM »
We can only trust what is set in steel ;)
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

Miyabi

  • Level 45
  • *
  • Posts: 3098
  • Fell Points: 1
  • Simple is the concept of love as eternity.
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2008, 01:55:55 AM »
i think we can trust all of Alendi's logbook, simply because i don't think Sanderson would have planned a relatively minor plot point, that Ruin can manipulate written words, that far ahead of time.
Wasn't the original set in some kind of metal?

Although I don't think that we could trust the written stuff. (i.e. the stuff Vin was going through)
オレは長超猿庁じゃ〜。

Andrew the Great

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 967
  • Fell Points: 0
  • If that never happened again, it would be too soon
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 03:45:18 AM »
No, the original copy of the logbook we have was taken from Kredik Shaw. It is likely, however, that we can trust the logbook as ruin's influence was still limited when the lord ruler was around.

Kwaan's steel plate, however, is interesting. When you look at what the original says and what Ruin changed it to, you get some interesting things, and most of it seems insignificant, but I think there's more there than we know.

Other than that, we just have character references to the prophecies, which really don't tell us anything.
Sign on wall: "We're doing everything we can to get you to the math lab and get you help."
Random girl: "That explains so much about the way my professors have been teaching..."

"Look! I can play Mary had a little lamb on my rape whistle!"

Executor of Chaos' Opinions in the Event of His Absence

Qarlin

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 267
  • Fell Points: 0
  • The idiotic cock-eyed flum-dummery!
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2008, 08:09:56 AM »
So I guess I'm wondering if anyone wants to compile the list of changes that we KNOW were made in WoA?

Andrew the Great

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 967
  • Fell Points: 0
  • If that never happened again, it would be too soon
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2008, 04:44:50 PM »
To the Steel Plate? Vintage already did. It's in her compilation of the steel plate. I don't know if there were any changes to the logbook at all, but I could look into it. If you'd like, I'll send you the steel plate.
Sign on wall: "We're doing everything we can to get you to the math lab and get you help."
Random girl: "That explains so much about the way my professors have been teaching..."

"Look! I can play Mary had a little lamb on my rape whistle!"

Executor of Chaos' Opinions in the Event of His Absence

happyman

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 828
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2008, 06:43:27 PM »
I think we can do better than most people here are thinking.

The obvious things are the logbook and Kwaan's bumps, but there are logical things that we can do as well.  Remember when Sazed and Tindwyl are reading the modified account, and Tindwyl is worried that the story (as modified by Ruin, but she didn't know that) didn't make sense?  Remember that Sazed barely had a chance to read the plate before he copied it.  If Ruin's power was anywhere near as complete as some people here seem to think, Ruin could have made it anything he wanted, but instead he did the bare minimum to keep it from alerting anybody about his plan.  The logical inconsistencies could have and almost did stop him from being released (by making Sazed suspicious)!  Surely he didn't want that.  No, I think that Ruin's power was much more limited than we usually credit it with.  I don't think he would have tried to change every scrap of information everywhere because it would take too long, would have had little point and much more importantly could have alerted somebody that something odd was happening.  He probably focused his efforts on the key players.  The changes with respect to the heroes' height are a case in point; he changed Sazed's copy of Kwaans slab, but not the other records that described the hero as being tall.

So:  using logical guidelines, what else can we say is true?  Is there a Hero of Ages?  Was there any truth to Kwaan's religion (and if not, how did he discover Ruin?)  What he says on his metal slab implies he had figured out that something was controlling his religion and that releasing the power would release it.  How did he know that?  And how did the Kandra get their religion which knows about Ruin and Preservation if someone didn't tell them?  The truth must have been somewhere.   Surely there are hints in the text; logical consistencies or inconsistencies that might take us somewhere.
Nature hates being reified.

Comatose

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 904
  • Fell Points: 1
  • A Shard of Adonalsium
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 12:15:14 AM »
Well we now the bumps before chapters are correct; the ones in MB2 were, so  Ithink the ones from MB1 are probably as well, they are presented from a more omnicient point of view, the ones we have to worry about, are the ones that appear only in the story.
There should be a couple threads in the archives about the epigraphs and such.  Mainly concerning things like the metal lake, the piercings of the hero (all found in the bumps) and the end epigraph of MB1, which is not found anywhere in the books, and it seems to me like it comes after the last bit of the logbook "tommorow it will end." since there Alendi is worried and nervous, and in the bump before the epilogue, he is at ease.
"Look, I'm just trying to change the world, okay? I don't have time for a grudge match with every poser in a parka!"
- Dr. Horrible

"There's always another secret..."
- Kelsier

JCHancey

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Formerly known as Jakobus
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 02:14:43 AM »
Read this in the steel plate rubbing compilation:

Quote
2 I have begun to wonder if I am the only sane man left. Can the others not see ? They have been waiting so long for their hero to come the one spoken of in Terris prophecies that they quickly jump between conclusions, presuming that each story and legend applies to this one man.

Story and legend. These prophecies could just be stories of what has already happened before, a cycle. I brought this up on the ruin and preservation thread page 11. Every 1000 years someone comes along and takes what is in the well and uses that power to create something new. First was either Feruchemy or Hemalurgy, second is whichever wasn't created, and last was Allomancy. This is the first time that the "Hero" has actually released the power in the well (whether it be ruin or preservation).
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

Comatose

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 904
  • Fell Points: 1
  • A Shard of Adonalsium
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 02:22:20 AM »
What happens when the power goes untaken and just stays there?  And has this "World," and this well been in existance for over 3000 years?  PErhaps Ruin was only trapped there 2000 years ago, his first chance to escape came 1000 years ago, and the lord ruler took the power for himself, and then his next chance came present day, and Vin freed him.  We can;t assume that the cycle has gone on forever.  Ruin must have been free at one point, right?
"Look, I'm just trying to change the world, okay? I don't have time for a grudge match with every poser in a parka!"
- Dr. Horrible

"There's always another secret..."
- Kelsier

JCHancey

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 257
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Formerly known as Jakobus
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 03:30:51 AM »
Maybe not wholly freed, just partially. Now it is freed completely. It could have been freed any other time but who would want to give up the power of the well?
RJF: "I spit upon the ground where you no longer ever existed."

Comatose

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 904
  • Fell Points: 1
  • A Shard of Adonalsium
    • View Profile
Re: How much of the prophecies can we trust?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2008, 05:30:27 AM »
Not freed, free.  Meaning I don't think he started out trapped in that well.
Unless....
Maybe Ruin and Preservation BOTH started out trapped, and now Ruin is free trying to end Preservation.
"Look, I'm just trying to change the world, okay? I don't have time for a grudge match with every poser in a parka!"
- Dr. Horrible

"There's always another secret..."
- Kelsier