Author Topic: Rashek's hatred not misplaced  (Read 10121 times)

SarahG

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2008, 10:59:00 PM »
The thing about prophecies is that they don't always mean what they seem to mean.  "No woman shall keep him [her]" could even be twisted to refer to Vin's mother abandoning her.  But still, I vote for Sazed being the Hero of Ages.

And can I just say right now, I really hope that at least Vin, Elend, and Sazed survive MB3?  It would be really sad if one or all of them dies, and excruciatingly sad if one of them has to kill another of them.  If any of the main characters dies, it had better be for an awfully good reason.
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Qarlin

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 12:47:24 AM »
yea verily.

Comatose

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2008, 01:44:45 AM »
Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her,"  thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend
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darxbane

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2008, 03:45:14 PM »
Just because the MB3 prologue has Marsh using a Keeper to make an Inquisitor doesn't mean it is necessary.  The specifically attacked the Keepers after they announced themselves.  It is more likely that using Keepers will give new Inquisitors additional powers, like a super Inquisitor, for lack of a better term. 

As for the prophecies - seeing as it has been proven that Ruin changes the words to fit his plans, we really can't rely on them for any theories related to book 3, other than the fact that nothing written down on paper or stored in metalminds can be trusted.

Rashek's hatred was irrational and selfish.  He was envious of the Khlenni, which probably explains why he adopted their fashion and architecture after he "ascended". 
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

happyman

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2008, 04:56:30 PM »
As for the prophecies - seeing as it has been proven that Ruin changes the words to fit his plans, we really can't rely on them for any theories related to book 3, other than the fact that nothing written down on paper or stored in metalminds can be trusted.

We've also seen that Ruin's power to change prophecies was sharply limited.  Basically, it focused its efforts only on the ones needed to get it free.  Thus if we quote a prophecy and you want to claim that it is false, you must first show a reason for it to have been changed, rather than dismissing it outright.
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SarahG

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2008, 05:19:23 PM »
Remember, Sazed says in the original language, the him/her is gender nuetral, thus it would more likely read, "No man/woman shall claim him/her,"  thus it can't Refer to Vin, as she has been claimed by Elend


Well, just because him/her is gender-neutral doesn't mean that man/woman is.  Many languages have gender-neutral pronouns while still having distinct words for "man" and "woman".  In fact, I can't think of a language that DOESN'T have those two distinct words.  And if there were such a language, and the sentence in question was in that language, it would most likely be translated "No man shall claim him" or perhaps (if a feminist was translating) "No woman shall claim her" or "No person shall claim him/her".  The fact that the noun is rendered female and the pronoun male indicates that, in the original language, at least the noun has gender marking.

Then again, I'm not sure EUOL has enough linguistic sophistication to analyze it that carefully, so perhaps he did mean for that ambiguity to be there.  I don't know.
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Qarlin

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2008, 07:32:58 PM »
He was an English major, so I don't see why not. The only reason that ambiguity would even need to be there, is if Vin was (or is) the HoA, which we don't know. And it's not claim, it's keep.

"the Hero of Ages shall not be a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him. He shall belong to none, not even himself."

Emphasis added, of course.

SarahG

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2008, 07:50:46 PM »
He was an English major, so I don't see why not.

Not all English majors know a lot about linguistics.  Sanderson's use of dialects, in particular, leads me to believe he doesn't.  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his writing (or I wouldn't even be on this board).  But being a fan doesn't mean I think he's perfect in every aspect of his craft.
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Comatose

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2008, 08:09:41 PM »
Or perhpaps they're making a new kind of inquisitors, seeing as how they probably don't have as much access to skaa mistings anymore, since they don't have the authority of the empire!  It does say they have a special purpose for Skaa mistings!
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SarahG

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2008, 08:30:13 PM »
Or perhpaps they're making a new kind of inquisitors, seeing as how they probably don't have as much access to skaa mistings anymore, since they don't have the authority of the empire!  It does say they have a special purpose for Skaa mistings!

Comatose, is this the thread you meant to post this in?
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darxbane

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2008, 09:36:21 PM »
He was responding to my earlier post so yes.  The only "limitations" to Ruin's prophecy changes are people's memories and things written in steel.  Everything else seems to be fair game, which explains all of the contradictions and paradoxes in the prophecy.  It has been manipulated for over a thousand years, it may not even remotely resemble its original form.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Qarlin

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2008, 09:44:46 PM »
Agreed; how much of it was changed before Kwaan even started noticing?

Comatose

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 01:32:59 AM »
I think it would still remotely resemble it's form, if it changed too much, people with normal memories would notice as well, the only reason Kwaan noticed was his photographic memory, because the changes were too small for the other Worldbringers to pick up on with their own memories, and there metalminds had been changed.
Ruin also wouldn't have started changing things until Kwaan decided Alendi was a potential candidate for hero, and then he went with it, just like he didn't change Kwaan's rubbing until Sazed started wondering if Vin was the hero.
We also know, at least when he was trapped, Ruin could only change select things on paper and metalminds, he didn't get around to changing everything, because Twindyl found things that contradicted the rubbing.
And sorry, since it was a couple posts back I guesss I should have quoted it.

I just thought of something, maybe "No woman shall keep him," means something different than we think, Alendi, says he had MANY marriages, so although he IS married, no woman shall keep him refers to the fact that no woman has her to himself, you could bring this to refer to Elend in the sense that, Vin doesn't have him all to herself, she has to share him with the kingdom, and what if he needs to put the needs of the kingdom before her?  And maybe it DOESN"T refer to Sazed, because, now that Twyndil is dead, it seems he's not letting her go. I still like Sazed as the hero, but maybe it's not as clear cut as we thought.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 01:55:08 AM by Comatose »
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Qarlin

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 02:55:56 AM »
Nothing is ever as clear as we think; A, we don't necessarily think clearly, and B, if it was that clear, we wouldn't have so many theories. :P

happyman

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Re: Rashek's hatred not misplaced
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 07:50:59 PM »
Yesterday I wrote up a big rant about how we know there are some things that Ruin hasn't messed with.  I made essentially the same points as Comatose made:

1) Ruin could not change too much too quickly.  Normal people would notice.  There was almost certainly a verbal tradition in addition to the Worldbringer's metalminds (people had heard the stories before).  Anything that drew attention to itself was dangerous.

2) Even when Ruin did make changes, it had to make them slowly.  If it could have, it would have almost certainly changed Kwaan's document to be less contradictory, more consistent.  Instead, it focused its efforts on the parts that referred to itself explicitly.  Given the fact that the contradictions almost led to it not being released, I think we can view this as an inherent limitation on the speed with which it could make changes.  I.e. it could only make a few changes over the course of several months.

3) Kwaan himself notes that the changes were subtle.  This supports #1 and #2 above.  It's power was limited in clear ways.

4) Ruin is clearly not omniscient.  It had to adjust the situation to the as it changed, and it didn't know how it would change.  We can see this by the way changes to the "Hero of Ages" prophecy happened within Kwaan's lifetime to match Alendi---if Ruin could have seen far enough in the future, it could have matched Alendi well in advance.  We also see this in the way Sazed's document was changed---it responded to events as they happened.  Slowly.

5) Most important of all, it's power has not always been active in the world.  Why do I say this?  Here's the quote:

Quote
The prophecies have changed.  They now tell Alendi that he must give up the power once he takes it.  This is not what was once implied by the texts--they were more vague.  And yet, the new version seems to make it a moral imperative.  The texts now outline terrible consequences if the Hero of Ages takes the power for himself.

This is easily the most important part of the prophecies, the thing that Ruin absolutely had to change in order to get free.  Surely it could have changed them without knowing the Hero of Ages, given that it groomed the "Hero" for the role?  If it's power were as extensive as some of you seem to imply, these changes should have been the slowest changes, and done well in advance.  Instead, the change happened within Kwaan's lifetime in a way he could notice.  Thus we can conclude that Ruin only had a small window of opportunity to change the documents, and in fact it failed to get free that time because the window was too small.

From this we can come to some conclusions:

A) Ruin focused only on those changes most advantageous to itself, due to its limited time and ability.  Most documents, even those that contradicted its version of events, were probably ignored simply because they didn't matter.  Getting the hero to focus on its version would be the best use of its resources.  Thus unless the prophecy needed to be changed to get Alendi or Vin to the well (or otherwise forward Ruin's plans), we can probably assume it is correct.

B) Most of the time between TLRer's ascension and MB2, Ruin probably couldn't affect the world at all.  Most documents and metalminds from this time are almost certainly untouched.

C) We can probably tease out some truths from things that are sufficiently vague.  There is no reason for Ruin to change them unless it sees a profit in it.  Alendi's second-hand quote certainly applies here.

Thus I feel that we can make some predictions based on the prophecies.  When we argue about whether something has been changed or not, the above considerations should be applied.  I've been trying to find the time when Tindwyl and Sazed were discussing contradictions between different sources on the hero's height, but I can't seem to find them and don't have the time for a reread.

My $.02.
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