Author Topic: Vin as HOA?  (Read 37500 times)

Faster Master St. Pastor

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2008, 03:56:28 AM »
Do you really think Ruin has that much power?  I'd say that's a little extreme.

I think it's extreme too.  I meant the theory as a joke, but I obviously didn't make that clear.  Tone of voice is hard to express online.

Oh no, you made it clear.  I enjoy taking things literally when they aren't meant to be taken as such.  Its one of my hobbies.
"elantris or evisceration"-Entropy.

Chaos

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2008, 07:11:28 AM »
Yep, darxbane is dead.  Slain by a time-traveling Mistborn assasin.

Dude, time-traveling Mistborn would be frickin' awesome... not only would you fly through the night as magic-wielding ninjas, you could go back in time to kill your enemies. That would be the best ninja ever.

Darxbane, RIP.
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Vintage

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2008, 11:18:49 AM »
Ah ! Mais comme aux dernières nouvelles, il nous parlait d'Elantris... je le soupçonne de ne pas être véritablement mort. Enfin ! Espérons que Raoden trouvera quelque chose pour l'occuper.

SarahG

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2008, 08:36:52 PM »
Ah ! Mais comme aux dernières nouvelles, il nous parlait d'Elantris... je le soupçonne de ne pas être véritablement mort. Enfin ! Espérons que Raoden trouvera quelque chose pour l'occuper.

Je suis d'accord.  Peut-être il s'occupera en organizant les livres dans la bibliothèque sousterraine - et en découvrant les secrets la-dedans.

(Je sais que mon français n'est pas aussi fluent que ton englais.  Je m'excuse.)
He ate my horse.

darxbane

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2008, 08:58:08 PM »
Man, it sucks to find out your dead from a forum post.  Oh well, I guess it beats hearing the news from some sniveling pshychic 10 year old who strings you along for months before finally breaking the news to you.  :)  by the way, what is up with talking about Elantris on a Mistborn thread?  In French no less!  I feel like I'm 8 again and my mother and grandmother are talking about my Christmas presents right in front of me!  Of course, I know enough to get the gist of the conversation now, and I can't resist using a web translator to get the rest, so just start a new thread already!   :P

Ha! I just checked and I am not dead!  Apparently the time-traveling ninja Mistborn kills my 75 years from now, after I steal his 19 year-old fiancee from him.  105 is long enough to live anyway.  :-*
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Vintage

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2008, 11:17:41 AM »
Oups ! Sorry guys ! I hadn't realize I wrote the previous post in french lol I would have never expected to find anyone here to speak french though ! I'll send you an e-mail Sarah !

Well, no, not quite dead Darxbane. We were saying that since the last post, you were speaking about Elantris, we thought that you had become an Elantrian and Sarah thought that Raoden could use you in the secret library to help him sort out secrets.  ;D

Well, if they have a computer, it's great lol

Chaos

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2008, 06:19:04 PM »
I'm waiting for my future time-traveling Mistborn self to come back in time to tell me that I'd be rich, handsome, and have a concubine. Get it together, future self! Jeez, the nerve of these time-traveling Mistborn.

Maybe darxbane, you are like an Elantrian. Dead, but you don't know it, lol...

We really need to get back on topic... so, I'll begin with a theory:

I came up with great story idea... about a prophet and things. That got me thinking: someone had to create the Terris Prophecies to begin with. Perhaps a Worldbringer did... who knows? However, Brandon constantly refers to the "mythology" of the Mistborn world, where there is two forces in the world and there is only a single mist spirit. Obviously, we know this refers to Ruin and Preservation.

I don't know about you, but I don't think the Terris Prophecies are created by a Worldbringer. It would kind of be anticlimactic. Some people think that Ruin completely fabricated the Prophecies, but I don't think so. A Feruchemist would know if in his coppermind, he suddenly found a giant thing of prophecies.

"Dude, dude! Guess what!"

"Yeah?"

"I discovered the Terris Prophecies in my coppermind, man! We're saved."

"You're on crack."

Obviously, something like that would be rather suspicious. The same with Ruin creating a prophecy from manipulating paper. Say you have an empty book, and then the next day, it turns into a whole book of prophecies. That would be equally freaky, and make people want to burn the book.

Let's imagine, then, that Ruin wants to destroy the world, because that's what it does. Now, because the Prophecies existed before the Ascension, and that it mentions the Deepness and stopping it, we can presume that the Deepness existed before in some form.

This is all supposition, but what if Ruin originally tried to destroy the world with the Deepness as a direct way to destroy the world? There could be a time where there were no Prophecies. Something had to spawn these prophecies to begin with.

If the Prophecies, before this "basic-Ruin" didn't realize it would be more efficient to manipulate them, had an innate knowledge on how to defeat the Deepness/Ruin, this suggests a more enigmatic force, a force which is more knowledgable about the whole dichotomy between Ruin and Preservation. Presumably, this points to Preservation originally creating the Prophecies.

Now, Kwaan's account tells us a lot about how the Prophecies are manipulated. First of all, the Terrismen already had a vague knowledge of the Prophecies (because Ruin couldn't just create a string of prophecies without scaring people, regardless of whether he has the power to do so or not). Kwaan calls the fact that Alendi must, supposedly, go free the power like a "moral imperative". But before, he says "they were more vague." This is extraordinarily important. It means that there was a time--very recently, if Kwaan can remember how it originally was--when the prophecies were not being manipulated.

Follow my reasoning: if the Prophecies had been manipulated for hundreds or thousands of years, they would be so corrupted that Kwaan would have no question that Alendi would need to give up the power. Ruin would be subtly changing them for a long time into the Prophecies were perfectly correct for Ruin's intentions.

However, it's not. This gives me further reason to believe Ruin didn't create the Prophecies, because Kwaan wouldn't realize the manipulation if it happened centuries ago (remember, Feruchemists didn't live forever, so Kwaan couldn't have lived for centuries). This points to a recent event that somehow triggered Ruin to manipulate the Prophecies. The Deepness also appears to be a recent event, or else the Deepness would already have destroyed the world.

Something that we don't even know about yet, before the Ascension, happened to trigger Ruin to both of these things in the span of one lifetime (Kwaan's time). As our understanding of Ruin and the Lord Ruler goes, the Lord Ruler did something to weaken substantially Ruin. No Lord Ruler and Ruin gets stronger. Obviously, in Kwaan's time, there was no Lord Ruler, so ostensibly, Ruin could go out any time, summon the Deepness, and manipulate the Prophecies.

He didn't. Now, Ruin is our ultimate incarnation of destruction: if it could destroy the world, it would. It wouldn't wait for centuries until this time to unleash the Deepness unless: 1. It couldn't. Or, 2. There is a better reason to destroy the world then (?).

Something is going on here... something far greater than we know.

(By the way, I think this is as good of topic as any for Hero of Ages and Terris Prophecies)
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darxbane

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2008, 06:38:05 PM »
I have one wrinkle for your theory, Chaos.  If Ruin's power was related to the Well's millenial schedule, then it would make sense that his influence over the prophecy would increase as the well's power increased.  There is evidence of this with Vin's sensing of the Well.  It slowly gets stronger throughout the second book, until she can feel it even without burning bronze, and then it continues to gain strength.  At the same time, the mists become more and more prevalent during the day, and more people are killed by it. 

As for the prophecy's origin, Ruin could have taken a relevant story and begun to adapt it to a prophecy.  All you need to do is convince the right people, and they will convince everyone else.  After a couple of generations, the belief becomes a part of society.

Sarah/Vintage, I appreciate the confidence.  If I were an Elantrian, I would have to be a researcher, because I am fairly certain I wouldn't be able to draw an Aon to save my a$$.  :D  I should be done reading Elantris by next week sometime, so I won't be worried about spoilers by then.
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Chaos

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2008, 07:06:25 PM »
That is an excellent point. I had forgotten about the well's millennial schedule. However, I wonder why the Well would be on a schedule in the first place?
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Vintage

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2008, 02:27:20 AM »
Why is the sky blue ? Why do we breath ? This is nature, no need for a particular reason at least for this point.

Didn't Sazed said something in MB1 about prophecies being created out of hope ? You need prophecy to help you believe in a better future for yourself and/or your children. But... the present has to be lowsy to start with. You have to be desperate in a way. I agree that the Deepness is a recent event in Kwaan's life mainly because of this :

Quote
I sense a craftiness behind these changes, a manipulation subtle and brilliant...  It is pulling him toward the Well of Ascension, where the millennial power has gathered. I can only guess that it sent the Deepness as a method of making mankind more desperate, of pushing us to do as it wills.

Now, if the Deepness had been there long before, Kwaan would not have written anything like this, right ? And I agree also about something happening to trigger Ruin into action. The rise of the Well of Ascension ? Could it be sufficient ?

Moreover, talking about subtlety, the text changed even during Sazed's time. When he translated the rubbing with Thindwill,  they had translated this text :

Quote
There was a place for me, in the lore of the Anticipation – I thought myself the Announcer, the prophet foretold to discover the Hero of Ages. Renouncing Alendi then would have been to renounce my new position, my acceptance, by the others.

During the attack on Luthadel, a skaa called Sazed the "Holy First Witness". When he came back after everything, thinking of Thindwill, he started to read what they had done together and he stumbled on this :

Quote
There was a place for me, in the lore of the Anticipation – I thought myself the Holy First Witness, the prophet foretold to discover the Hero of Ages. Renouncing Alendi then would have been to renounce my new position, my acceptance, by the others.

Now talk to me about subtlety again ! And so Sazed started to think like Kwaan : he had serious, very serious doubts. It wasn't the only change. There were a few just from the rubbing without implying directly Sazed, just so subtle, but it changed the whole perspective. Euol is really... evil...  ;D

After a night of sleep...

Sleep does wonder, I tell you. When I fell asleep, I was still wondering what could have make the creation of those prophecies possible. And this morning, I woke up with a possibility. So, the Deepness was something new, something to force people to act, the Well as a millenial cycle... so it must have seen quite a bit of Heroes yet and... I couldn't believe it when I read it, but Vin had the answer. While she was pounding about the Lord Ruler, the Well and the power, she asked herself this question : If the hero was not to take the power for himself unless the world would be destroyed, and that we know that Rashek did exactly that, how come the world still exist after 1000 years ? So here are my thoughts.

Millenial cycles have succeeded one after the other. Ruin never got to lure any of the heroes that raised amongst the people, so it got craftier with each raise of power. Decisions were taken by other types of "ruler". What might happen is that most of the heroes died because they were not feruchemist and therefore could not store age.  Nevertheless, they had power to create new things once every 1000 years. The world was balancing more or less happily. The mist, for instance, could have been there before the Lord Ruler as much as the Mist Spirit (being the incarnation of Preservation). But the Deepness isn't the mist itself, it is something that looks like the mist but was created by Ruin just to confuse people a little more, to make them desperate, to make them distrust the mist. But the thing is that as crafty as it gets, Ruin always lost because it was overdoing it. Whatever happenned with Kwaan that he had to start doubting ? Of course, the Hero of Ages would fit the prophecies, but he saw the prophecies changing. The very same thing is happening to Sazed (read the above quote). So he starts to suspect. It will lead him back to the Conventical where he will loose faith while reading the last sentence on the steel plate itself. In leaving Alendi's journal and not allowing Sazed to read the steel plate right in the conventical, it was getting its new stage ready for the biggest show of the millenium. Remember, Marsh was suddenly in a rush to leave although they had been there already for 8 days with no apparent rush. Do we have to remember who Marsh was listening to ? Sazed then takes the Rubbing, a modifiable pity thing. Everything is in place for the final act. It is confirm. The power has to be left and not taken by the hero. And here comes Vin who wants to do things right.

What do you think ?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 12:35:35 PM by Vintage »

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2008, 01:21:26 AM »
Or perhaps, the well of ascension existed before Ruin was imprisoned there.  Perhaps the well simply had the power of creation, and then Preservation used this millenial power to trap Ruin.
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Chaos

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2008, 02:05:02 PM »
I just realized something. Alendi's logbook cannot be trusted, perhaps not ever, but especially after the Lord Ruler was killed. It's made of paper, so Ruin could be manipulating it this whole time...
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Vintage

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2008, 02:44:09 PM »
We can trust it as much as the steel plate confirms it and it does confirms some of it, especially regarding Rashek animosity. But you are right, we cannot trust anything on paper. Maybe that is one of the reason why the Lord Ruler left it out of his incubating room.

darxbane

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2008, 02:49:30 PM »
Exactly.  Besides, EUOL wouldn't keep pointing out the importance of the epigraphs if they were lies, would he?
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SarahG

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Re: Vin as HOA?
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2008, 07:35:09 PM »
Exactly.  Besides, EUOL wouldn't keep pointing out the importance of the epigraphs if they were lies, would he?

Well, unless he was purposely trying to mislead us...
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