Author Topic: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*  (Read 8105 times)

Comfortable Madness

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Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« on: April 19, 2008, 08:07:53 AM »
The Lord Ruler was obviously the antagonist in the first installment of the series but can any of us say with one-hundred percent confidence we would have done things different? We know he resented the fact that Alendi was the "Hero" prophesied by the people of Terris even though he wasn't a Terrisman. We can also assume that if it wasn't for Rashek, Alendi would have done would Vin did just 1000 years prior thus releasing the well spirit. So, can we say that Rashek was a stop gap between himself and the real "Hero of Ages"? Properly holding back the well spirit until the actual "Hero" Vin, or as someone stated on one of these threads Elend, came to fulfill their role as savior? It's true he did perpeptrate many a horrible crime but maybe the power went to his head. I mean really put yourself in his shoes. He stopped a supposed "Hero" from releasing some horrible(or so I think) power upon all humanity while all the while being told noone of his blood would be able to do so. Now he has almost limitless power and somehow he uses it to restrain some darker, than himself that is, power back from consuming life as it is known. My point being that without TLR or Rashek or whatever you want to call him would the world have ever produced a Vin or even a Kelsier?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 12:42:21 PM by Comfortable Madness »
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.” Rand al'Thor

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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 08:03:49 PM »
I think you mean antagonist  when referring to the Lord ruler, protagonist is the hero of the story.  Other than that, I definately agree with you.  I still think in the end he turned out to be greedy and power hungry, but at the same time he was brilliant and as he said, "you know not what I do for mankind."  For mankind, yes without him Vin and Kelsier wouldn't exist probably, but I still think itr was warranted when Vin took his life.

Heres a thought, you know how koloss and knadra can be controlled by soothing them, well, what if that's how the lord ruler has been limiting the power of Ruin.  We already know he always exuded a huge soothing all around him, but was it just a show of power, or was he also trying to limit the effects of the well spirit?
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 01:01:19 AM »
Protagonist, antagonist... Was he really one of the two ? I'm starting to think very strange thoughts with all the reading I've been doing in the last three-four days. This isn't to improve my case.

Like Comatose, I think Rashek wanted to set things right at the beginning. His people should have been dominant since the prophecy (the real one, the one that was counterfeited) had been given to them. I understand his point of view. So he was instructed by Kwaan to kill Alendi if he just could not loose him in the Terris mountains. Let's believe that TLR is Rashek. It is obvious to me that the well spirit work had started corrupting the prophecy way before the advent of Alendi. It takes time for all feruchemists to empty their metal mind and refil them by reading what they wrote again. If there was only one, it could have been fast but they were not bred yet. So it took time before Alendi, and yet once Alendi was found, it kept on changing things, subtly.

It is possible that Rashek suffered from this. Imagine one moment, the ones leading your people being fool by a spirit of some sort, being defeated by what they considered most sacred : their feruchemy. Of course Kwaan would have been persecuted for his belief. He might also have died defending it. It seems to me that Terris people are sincere and honest and don't easily bend. They must have been hard on him. Rashek might have had some resentment toward them. The official story is that Rashek killed Alendi so let's stick to it (for my own sanity).

Rashek kills Alendi in the Terris mountains and then goes himself to the Well of Ascension. Somehow, I do not think it was instilled by Kwaan. He doesn't mention that on his metal work. But maybe Rashek thought that HE was the Hero. After all, who could that be now that Alendi was dead ? The Šeepness was there, making everyone desperate. So, he takes it upon himself to go to the well. Now, before I continue, I cannot recall a single place where it says that Rashek was feruchemist. Don't jump ! But I only have a small reluctance on this even after all the threads I've read. Whatever he was before, it got changed afterwards. Comatose, you might say that you don't believe that TLR is using hemalurgy, but I tend to believe it when I read it in Brandon's annotations. He would not lie, would he ? Would he lead us astray voluntarily ? Unless the well spirit is active in this world, I don't think so. So here Rashek to the Well of Ascension investigated with POWER so immense ! He's got the power to change the world, to set it right. He sees the Deepness and does something. Now the more I think of it, the less I think that the Deepness was the regular mist or even the Mist Spirit.

Like Kwaan suggest, it might be the Well that created the Deepness just to force people to act. So here, Rashek acted but not the way it was hoping. When I read Vin's thought when the POWER invests her, I see one thing. Vin is in love and what pushed her to act is love, at that moment, she is no more the paranoid kid. Things she wants to do are things that love is pleased in, things that are agreable. When Rashek was in the same situation, he was already bitter. For all that we know, Alendi could have been the first man he killed and eventhough he did not like him, he might have come to realize as Kwaan did that the man was a good man. So he might have felt guilty also. And angry towards his fellow Terrisman, worst even toward the feruchemists that forced him to do what he did. It might be also that they killed his uncle, his woman and what not. Now if the POWER intensified Vin's feeling what do you think Rashek's feeling would have been intensified like ? Let's say, it's just a huge rioting they both received from the Well in addition to the POWER. But let's say that the Well spirit is not quite finished.

The Well spirit talks to Vin to convince her to give up the POWER so it could be freed. I have no doubt whatsoever that this spirit talked to Rashek as well. Once Vin liberated the POWER, it doesn't talk to her anymore, but Rashek did not do this... Do you see where this leads ? And how is a man suppose to react to such pressure after 5 years ? 10 ? 276 ? 589 ? 1000 ? His feelings only gets worst of course, the rioting constant. He wants to destroy the Terris Nation, but he still loves them somewhere. If he destroys feruchemy, the tool of the well spirit, his people (or what's left of them) can go on living. So he starts breeding the feruchemy out in the hope to salvage what's left. We have no reason to believe that Rashek did not love his people. He had the highest hopes for them ! The inner room was placated with reminders of his former life. He must have been desperate to see them survive. If only the feruchemy could be bred out ! Understand he only wanted to erase lies...

But the well spirit is not happy. Inquisitors is its counter balance. The Well spirit might be giving power to TLR, but it is also its torn in the flesh, his weakness. Whatever we think we know, it is what the Inquisitors and the Obligators taught the people, not reality for sure. They manipulated the truth just like the Well Spirit did. Like father like son. Did TLR really created the Inquisitors or the Well Spirit in him ? They were certainly meant to destroy, right from the beginning of their creation. I suggest that the Inquisitor were a tool of the Well spirit and therefore keep a hand on the control of its creation. The Well Spirit still talks to Zane telling him to kill everyone but Vin. It needs her to release it. It talks to Marsh to kill Sazed to stop him from reaching Vin. If Marsh cant help it after just a few weeks or months... how do you want TLR to manage so long without any effect ?

I tell you, TLR is a victim...  ::)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 01:44:25 AM by Vintage »

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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2008, 01:11:20 AM »
But The Well didn't start gaining power until after the lord ruler's death until aftere he died, so he couldn't have been influencing him unless...

Perhaps the well spirit was influencing the lord ruler and only him because he was acting as a shield, protection the people of the world from the well- spirits power by taking the brunt of it.

And it does say RAshek was a feruchemist in the log book entries by Alendi.
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2008, 03:31:50 AM »
I agree. I think that TLR was refraining the well spirit from gaining strenght as long as he lived. It is obvious to me that even after the Lord Ruler's death, Marsh still hears the well spirit so he wasn't the only one influenced and possibly all of the Inquisitors were. We'll see, I guess.

I do have a lowsy memory so I won't argue on this point. I have to reread everything anyhow. It might be well so. But I hold on to his hemalurgy.

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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2008, 07:24:44 PM »
One thing that doesn't make sense, and this has bee nbrought up before, is that Vin's mother and Zane both heard voices during hte Lord Ruler's life.
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2008, 07:44:15 PM »
I can't seem to find any sympathy for a person who so easily discarded the lives of so many.  It is one thing to lash out in anger and punish your enemies, but to do it for so long?  At best, the Skaa are nothing but livestock to him.    And your right, Coma.  He couldn't stop Ruin from influencing Zane or Vin's mom.  It also wouldn't surprise me if he still had some sway over the Inq's, although much more subtly than afterwards. 
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2008, 08:58:15 PM »
Perhaps the lrod ruler was acting like a shield of sorts, but some of ruin's influence still leaked around the edges, as he gained, power, thus he was able to influence a few select people who would be important to him later.
Another thing, when did Vin snap, perhaps ruin had something to do with that as well.
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2008, 09:50:28 PM »
I don't remember reading about the exact time.  Maybe it was the day her mother killed her sister and gave her the earring?  We can only guess.  She definitely didn't snap like Kelsier did.  Maybe she always had her abilities.  That will probably be something EUOL answers after book 3 comes out.
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2008, 11:39:03 PM »
Yes, in MB1, it says something along the lines of, "there were many times in her life when it could have happened, (not exact quote, I just don't have the book with me right now.
I think it was likely when her mother performed the wierd earing ritual, but that brings up that old question: Is Vin really and allomancer, or does all her abilities come from hemalurgy.  I'm oretty sure she's an allomancer, after all, she draws on the mist, and uses allomancy without her earing so, it's unlikely, but still, would she have been an allomncer without the ritual.
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"There's always another secret..."
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2008, 07:14:48 AM »
Protagonist, antagonist... Was he really one of the two ? I'm starting to think very strange thoughts with all the reading I've been doing in the last three-four days. This isn't to improve my case.

Like Comatose, I think Rashek wanted to set things right at the beginning. His people should have been dominant since the prophecy (the real one, the one that was counterfeited) had been given to them. I understand his point of view. So he was instructed by Kwaan to kill Alendi if he just could not loose him in the Terris mountains. Let's believe that TLR is Rashek. It is obvious to me that the well spirit work had started corrupting the prophecy way before the advent of Alendi. It takes time for all feruchemists to empty their metal mind and refil them by reading what they wrote again. If there was only one, it could have been fast but they were not bred yet. So it took time before Alendi, and yet once Alendi was found, it kept on changing things, subtly.

It is possible that Rashek suffered from this. Imagine one moment, the ones leading your people being fool by a spirit of some sort, being defeated by what they considered most sacred : their feruchemy. Of course Kwaan would have been persecuted for his belief. He might also have died defending it. It seems to me that Terris people are sincere and honest and don't easily bend. They must have been hard on him. Rashek might have had some resentment toward them. The official story is that Rashek killed Alendi so let's stick to it (for my own sanity).

Rashek kills Alendi in the Terris mountains and then goes himself to the Well of Ascension. Somehow, I do not think it was instilled by Kwaan. He doesn't mention that on his metal work. But maybe Rashek thought that HE was the Hero. After all, who could that be now that Alendi was dead ? The Šeepness was there, making everyone desperate. So, he takes it upon himself to go to the well. Now, before I continue, I cannot recall a single place where it says that Rashek was feruchemist. Don't jump ! But I only have a small reluctance on this even after all the threads I've read. Whatever he was before, it got changed afterwards. Comatose, you might say that you don't believe that TLR is using hemalurgy, but I tend to believe it when I read it in Brandon's annotations. He would not lie, would he ? Would he lead us astray voluntarily ? Unless the well spirit is active in this world, I don't think so. So here Rashek to the Well of Ascension investigated with POWER so immense ! He's got the power to change the world, to set it right. He sees the Deepness and does something. Now the more I think of it, the less I think that the Deepness was the regular mist or even the Mist Spirit.

Like Kwaan suggest, it might be the Well that created the Deepness just to force people to act. So here, Rashek acted but not the way it was hoping. When I read Vin's thought when the POWER invests her, I see one thing. Vin is in love and what pushed her to act is love, at that moment, she is no more the paranoid kid. Things she wants to do are things that love is pleased in, things that are agreable. When Rashek was in the same situation, he was already bitter. For all that we know, Alendi could have been the first man he killed and eventhough he did not like him, he might have come to realize as Kwaan did that the man was a good man. So he might have felt guilty also. And angry towards his fellow Terrisman, worst even toward the feruchemists that forced him to do what he did. It might be also that they killed his uncle, his woman and what not. Now if the POWER intensified Vin's feeling what do you think Rashek's feeling would have been intensified like ? Let's say, it's just a huge rioting they both received from the Well in addition to the POWER. But let's say that the Well spirit is not quite finished.

The Well spirit talks to Vin to convince her to give up the POWER so it could be freed. I have no doubt whatsoever that this spirit talked to Rashek as well. Once Vin liberated the POWER, it doesn't talk to her anymore, but Rashek did not do this... Do you see where this leads ? And how is a man suppose to react to such pressure after 5 years ? 10 ? 276 ? 589 ? 1000 ? His feelings only gets worst of course, the rioting constant. He wants to destroy the Terris Nation, but he still loves them somewhere. If he destroys feruchemy, the tool of the well spirit, his people (or what's left of them) can go on living. So he starts breeding the feruchemy out in the hope to salvage what's left. We have no reason to believe that Rashek did not love his people. He had the highest hopes for them ! The inner room was placated with reminders of his former life. He must have been desperate to see them survive. If only the feruchemy could be bred out ! Understand he only wanted to erase lies...

But the well spirit is not happy. Inquisitors is its counter balance. The Well spirit might be giving power to TLR, but it is also its torn in the flesh, his weakness. Whatever we think we know, it is what the Inquisitors and the Obligators taught the people, not reality for sure. They manipulated the truth just like the Well Spirit did. Like father like son. Did TLR really created the Inquisitors or the Well Spirit in him ? They were certainly meant to destroy, right from the beginning of their creation. I suggest that the Inquisitor were a tool of the Well spirit and therefore keep a hand on the control of its creation. The Well Spirit still talks to Zane telling him to kill everyone but Vin. It needs her to release it. It talks to Marsh to kill Sazed to stop him from reaching Vin. If Marsh cant help it after just a few weeks or months... how do you want TLR to manage so long without any effect ?

I tell you, TLR is a victim...  ::)

Before I go any further, I suggest you read this very interesting topic (mostly so you don't keep calling it the Well Spirit): Ruin and Preservation

Wow... that post was large. I must go to sleep and ponder this. Primarily, what you said about Inquisitors being created by Ruin (the Well Spirit).

I shall post an in-depth analysis soon! Tommorow!
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2008, 11:39:25 AM »
Well, not quite the well spirit ( I will continue to call it that way as long as I don't understand the principle and-or agree with how you did associated it with whatever), but the Well Spirit suggesting powerfully the one who hears and has the power. I think personaly that it is the source of hemalurgy. I might be wrong, but still...

And I'm trying to put words into my theories, the ones I promised Darxbane on the other topic. I'm no champion of clarity.

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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2008, 01:41:23 PM »
I understand completely.   I have trouble using Ruin sometimes, too, and I was part of that discussion.  If you read the chapter in MB2 where Vin first figures out how Allomancers can control Kandra, you'll see where TenSoon says humans are of Ruin, and the Kandra of Preservation.  While we don't know exactly what Preservation is, Ookla (who is an alpha reader) said that the name of the Well Spirit was mentioned in book 2.  He made us figure it out, but we did come up with Ruin eventually.  Brandon also mentioned in an annotation that TLR only touched upon one of the two forces.  That sparked a whole other debate.  Are you implying a True Power kind of scenario, A la Wheel of Time?
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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2008, 02:57:49 PM »
I simply mean that the suggestion would be so strong that the person would feel (eventually) that it did not have any choice to act otherwise. In the WoT, the one with the power was deciding to use it and in control (with practice). Now, how did Zane controlled himself not to kill everyone around him, that amazes me. He must have been really strong ! Remember how Alendi was tortured in having to kill all those people for the greatest good ? He was tormented, at the least, and I see the same torment in Zane, in Vin's mother (am I forgetful again but Brandon does not say that she is dead, right ? She only flew ? ), in Vin even - she hears "Reen's voice", she does not only remember him - it is not phrase like it's only a remembrance, at least). I printed the 26 pages of the Ruin & Preservation thread. I just seem to have a hard time getting the concept in. Must be my slowbrainer side at work... or wherever ruin passed by lol

And hum... I am not that sure that Rashek is the true identity of the Lord Ruler... dont hit me !

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Re: Sympathetic towards....the Lord Ruler?*Spoilers*
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2008, 04:47:02 PM »
EUOL has already said in his annotations that TLR is in fact, Rashek.  Zane quiets the voice by cutting himself.  EUOL has actually given us a clue about Hemallurgy when he mentions it in the related MB2 annotation. Alendi's remorse is not just who he has personnally killed, but those who fought and died in the wars fought while he ruled.  Alendi was the perfect hero.  He does what he has to do, but regrets some of the means to achieve it.  And as far as WOT goes, yes, those who could learn to channel chose to use it.  However, those born with the spark had no choice but to learn to control it, as they would one day channel no matter what.  With the True Power, however, Shai'Tain (yes I used his real name) decided who could use it, and it was extremely addicting and dangerous.  I thought that was where you were going with this.
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