Author Topic: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.  (Read 16017 times)

Phaz

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2008, 09:52:19 PM »
Well, the 15th metal turns a normal schmoe into a full blown Allomancer, so I'd say that's pretty powerful.  "Deific" Metals?  Seeing as these metals affect your ability to use metals, shouldn't they be Allomantic metals?  I know this isn't very creative, but aluminum definitely does not give you god like abilities.  It's pretty boring, actually.  Also, if they are related, then what they should work in a relative way.  I'll explain:  Duralimin - Greatly increases the amount of power drawn from another metal.  Aluminum makes the metals currently in your body powerless.  Therefore, if metal 15 (or 16) grants a person the ability to burn metals, then the other one wuold most likely take it away.  Also, in order to make this work, you wouldn't be able to choose to burn these metals.  They just do what they do as soon as they enter the body.

I'm not sure if the 15th (or 16th) metal is what Elend swallows (if that is what makes him a Mistborn).

It seems like if that was the case, than everyone would be a misting.

It seems to be a rule that as a misting you can only burn one metal.  It could be that everyone who can't burn one of the other metals can burn this one, and by burning it, it grants access to allow you to burn the other metals.

That seems sound, but I have a few issues with that.  One is that I don't believe everyone is a misting.  Mistings were created by the Lord Ruler, and there is all kinds of evidence suggesting that it's inherited through blood.  It just doesn't seem likely that all Skaa would fall into the category of being the kind of Misting that can burn this kind of metal, while somehow nobels fall into that category as well.  Plus, how would this work with Snaping?  Would you have to Snap before you can burn that metal?

Also, it doesn't seem that likely when you look at Mistings compared to Mistborn.  If this logic was the case, it would imply that anyone who can't burn one of the other metals can become a Mistborn.   However, someone that could already burn one of the other metals (ie a Misting) wouldn't be able to be a Mistborn, since they would have to burn this metal, which means they would be able to burn two metals, which doesn't fit the rules.  In this case, if someone was only able to burn say aluminum or duralumin then they could potentially be less powerful than a typical Skaa who can't burn anything?  That doesn't seem very likely.


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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2008, 11:11:04 PM »
Well, the 15th metal turns a normal schmoe into a full blown Allomancer, so I'd say that's pretty powerful.  "Deific" Metals?  Seeing as these metals affect your ability to use metals, shouldn't they be Allomantic metals?  I know this isn't very creative, but aluminum definitely does not give you god like abilities.  It's pretty boring, actually.  Also, if they are related, then what they should work in a relative way.  I'll explain:  Duralimin - Greatly increases the amount of power drawn from another metal.  Aluminum makes the metals currently in your body powerless.  Therefore, if metal 15 (or 16) grants a person the ability to burn metals, then the other one wuold most likely take it away.  Also, in order to make this work, you wouldn't be able to choose to burn these metals.  They just do what they do as soon as they enter the body.

I'm not sure if the 15th (or 16th) metal is what Elend swallows (if that is what makes him a Mistborn).

It seems like if that was the case, than everyone would be a misting.

It seems to be a rule that as a misting you can only burn one metal.  It could be that everyone who can't burn one of the other metals can burn this one, and by burning it, it grants access to allow you to burn the other metals.

That seems sound, but I have a few issues with that.  One is that I don't believe everyone is a misting.  Mistings were created by the Lord Ruler, and there is all kinds of evidence suggesting that it's inherited through blood.  It just doesn't seem likely that all Skaa would fall into the category of being the kind of Misting that can burn this kind of metal, while somehow nobels fall into that category as well.  Plus, how would this work with Snaping?  Would you have to Snap before you can burn that metal?

Also, it doesn't seem that likely when you look at Mistings compared to Mistborn.  If this logic was the case, it would imply that anyone who can't burn one of the other metals can become a Mistborn.   However, someone that could already burn one of the other metals (ie a Misting) wouldn't be able to be a Mistborn, since they would have to burn this metal, which means they would be able to burn two metals, which doesn't fit the rules.  In this case, if someone was only able to burn say aluminum or duralumin then they could potentially be less powerful than a typical Skaa who can't burn anything?  That doesn't seem very likely.



In response to the bolded part: Aluminum certainly does not give you godlike abilities. However, it essentially "destroys" the metals in your body. Going with the fact that only gods can create and destroy things, I think this is the best logic for these metals.

In response to the non-bolded part: No, I don't think this is true. I believe that Partum is automatically burned once it enters your body, as is Dispartum. This is weird, I know, but ah well.

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Chaos

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 06:01:31 AM »
One of these days, I intend to revise that first post. Despite my level of activity on the forum, I am really busy most of the time. I haven't exactly had time to do so at the moment (or inspiration, for that matter).

Darxbane- Aren't all 16 metals are "Allomantic" because they all can be used for Allomancy? A quartet can't be called Allomantic for that reason :P. I just liked Deific because it was better than Metallic. Actually, the real name for it probably ends in an -al, since there are External, Internal, and Temporal. The fourth quartet's name would fit that scheme, no doubt.

Phaz - Um, how'd you get to the conclusion that everyone would have to be mistings? I'm a little confused by that logic. If you could elaborate on that, I would appreciate that.

As for your comments about the Lord Ruler creating Allomancy, there are plenty of great topics where that's been discussed. I'm not trying to shut you up or anything--I like new viewpoints--I just want you to be informed. The main one I can think of is The Mists, which begins with my theory about an Allomancy-Mist connection. Perhaps you'll find that interesting.

I do, however, greatly like the points you brought up about how Partum is burned. I touched on this paradox on my last "The Mists" post, but it seems really strange that Partum can be burned at all if you aren't already a Mistborn, which would, of course, defeat the purpose of the metal entirely.

The Snapping thing is something I've definitely not talked about (or have seen it mentioned). Perhaps I could explain it in terms of Allomancy heredity.

You are right, Allomancy is a genetic trait. But, certainly, after the Ascension, the Lord Ruler would've had to create Allomancers. It is common consensus that the Lord Ruler just gave them this metal to eat, and then blam, you have Allomancers.

I don't think that means you need to Snap. (Note: I am beginning to think of a contradictory idea to this, which I will explain near the end of the post) I think, that since a "Genesis Allomancer" (first allomancer)'s kids would not have eaten this metal, they would need a Snap to awaken the power in the first point. Or something.

Contradictory theory time: What if all Partum did was essentially cause a Snap where there was none? I mean, make it so you are ABLE to Snap even if you don't have Allomantic heredity, and then immediately Snapping at the same time.

What is Snapping anyways? If you prefer to use my Mist-based definition of Allomancy in "The Mists" topic, then, I guess I would say that Snapping is the act of... being able to pull the mists. Or something!

I'm confusing myself now, I know it, and if I know it, you certainly must feel it. Therefore, I think I'll just stop talking and talk when I actually have something intelligent and comprehensive to say.
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Phaz

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 06:49:40 AM »

Phaz - Um, how'd you get to the conclusion that everyone would have to be mistings? I'm a little confused by that logic. If you could elaborate on that, I would appreciate that.

As for your comments about the Lord Ruler creating Allomancy, there are plenty of great topics where that's been discussed. I'm not trying to shut you up or anything--I like new viewpoints--I just want you to be informed. The main one I can think of is The Mists, which begins with my theory about an Allomancy-Mist connection. Perhaps you'll find that interesting.

I do, however, greatly like the points you brought up about how Partum is burned. I touched on this paradox on my last "The Mists" post, but it seems really strange that Partum can be burned at all if you aren't already a Mistborn, which would, of course, defeat the purpose of the metal entirely.

The Snapping thing is something I've definitely not talked about (or have seen it mentioned). Perhaps I could explain it in terms of Allomancy heredity.

You are right, Allomancy is a genetic trait. But, certainly, after the Ascension, the Lord Ruler would've had to create Allomancers. It is common consensus that the Lord Ruler just gave them this metal to eat, and then blam, you have Allomancers.

I don't think that means you need to Snap. (Note: I am beginning to think of a contradictory idea to this, which I will explain near the end of the post) I think, that since a "Genesis Allomancer" (first allomancer)'s kids would not have eaten this metal, they would need a Snap to awaken the power in the first point. Or something.

Contradictory theory time: What if all Partum did was essentially cause a Snap where there was none? I mean, make it so you are ABLE to Snap even if you don't have Allomantic heredity, and then immediately Snapping at the same time.

What is Snapping anyways? If you prefer to use my Mist-based definition of Allomancy in "The Mists" topic, then, I guess I would say that Snapping is the act of... being able to pull the mists. Or something!

I'm confusing myself now, I know it, and if I know it, you certainly must feel it. Therefore, I think I'll just stop talking and talk when I actually have something intelligent and comprehensive to say.

The logic (and definitions) I used are thus:

First, we assume that a Misting is someone that can burn one metal.   I think most people would agree that there are all kinds of mistings, including Atium, Alumninum, etc. 

We also assume there are 16 types of metals, and thus, there would be 16 types of Mistings.

If one of those 16 types of metals was one that granted you the powers of a Mistborn, than that would mean only Mistings who could burn that type (i.e. can't burn any others) are the kind that could become Mistborn.

This would leave you with 3 different types of allomancers:

1) People who are born Mistborn
2) People who are born a Misting of one of the other 15 types of metals
3) People who are born a Misting and can burn the metal to make them a Mistborn

I suppose that you could also create a 4th group, of people who have no allomantic power what so ever.  However, I don't think that logically it makes sense to have that group if you look at things in this manner. Thus, I group all the 'extra' people into the 3rd category, meaning they could become Mistborn.

The reasoning behind why it doesn't make sense to have people with no allomantic power and people who have the single ability to burn the metal that makes them a Mistborn is because it just doesn't seem to have the strength of a positive addition to the setting in the way that Brandon's additions typically do.

It's obvious that this magic system is very well thought out and very carefully planned.

It just seems silly to me that you would have people who are Mistborn, and then certain other people who could come Mistborn, but just have to find this other metal and burn it once in their life at some point, then they will be full Mistborn.  Why not just make them a Mistborn in the first place?  Plus, if this metal does grant the powers of a Mistborn, it seems like it would be something powefull enough that would grant anyone the power to become a Mistborn, not just a small portion of the population.

Plus, there are also issues with the first Mistborn.  If you went by these assumptions, you would have to assume that all those people (presumably before Mistborn even existed) would of all been Mistings that fell into the 3rd category (who could just burn that one metal making them Mistborn).

I guess logically I don't have any strong evidence against that, but it seems like the real answer is something much more clever.

I'm not sure if this makes sense at all, but I guess the short answer is if you accept those definitions and assumptions (which I think are logical) it just doesn't make sense that the metal that makes you a Mistborn is one of the 16 metals, because if that were the case, it would imply that everyone would be a Misting (with most people just in the way that they can burn that metal that makes them Mistborn).

Again, I can't think of any strong evidence against it, but the argument of it being one of the 16 metals just doesn't hold up well enough on it's own or seem clever enough to be the answer in this case.

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 03:53:29 PM »
Well, we don't know anything for certain about this last pair of metals. We could be totally wrong about everything.

And your definitions certainly make it sound like we have it wrong in a lot of ways.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 04:21:50 PM »
If the metal that makes you a Mistborn is not one of the 16, then what is it?  I understand the logic, but I think the metals that grant or take away power would be included in the magic system.  Anyone can swallow metals, they just can't tap into the power.  But what if this one changes you when you ingest it?  It would be similar to a radioactive metal, altering your DNA, but in this case in a way that allows you to tap into Allomancy.  This would also explain how it can be passed on from generation to generation.  The genetic trait may only become partially active, or never activate at all.  It can also decide to start working at various points in different people's lives.  There are many genetic diseases that work the same way.  Conversely, it's opposing metal could undo the change, turning a person back to "normal".  I know that mutations in DNA don't work that quickly, but that scene would have been much less dramatic if they had to wait a week for him to change.  Also, we can't forget that this is a work of fiction, and EUOL will take some liberties when it is necessary.  Even real-life science is not always cut and dry.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 06:20:29 PM »
What if what Elend injests is actually "mist" condensed and given solid form by the Lord Ruler that actually enables you to burn metals and is not atually the 15th metal?  This would mean there doesn't need to be a counterpart that would take away Alomancy.  Also, then you wouldn't have to burn it to use it, just ingest it, meaning that everyone is Not a allomancer.

Alternate theory: It is possible that the original nobles were people who for some unknown reason were special in their ability to burn the 15th or 16th metal.  That would explain the seperation of nobles and skaa who are basically identical.

Phaz

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2008, 08:34:17 PM »
I just thought of more reasoning for what Elend ingests not being the 15th or 16th metal.

Think of it in terms of a "normal" magic system.

In a normal magic system, you can wave your hands, say some words and (if you possess the power) cast spells.

Having the 15th or 16th metal be what makes him a mistborn, is like having a spell that you can cast that lets you cast spells.  Except you cast that spell before you have the ability to cast spells.

I could see it "changing your DNA" or something instead, but if that was the case, I wouldn't classify it as one of the 15th or 16th, because in that case, it isn't the same in the way that you are casting a spell to gain your powers, it's more you are dipping yourself into a pool that gives you the powers to cast spells, and I wouldn't classify the pool as a spell because they don't function in the same way.

It just seems too circular/redundant.

I was also thinking along the lines of what he has being like the mist.  We know the mist has something deep to do with Allomancy ("Vin drew upon the mist"), and we know that this bead also has something deep to do with Allomancy.  Thus, the logical conclusion is that they are the same, or they are at least very very similar.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:36:47 PM by Phaz »

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2008, 09:25:19 PM »
I think one of the reasons people think that Partum is the 15th metal is exactly because it is so ingrained in the Allomantic theory. In fact, there is a possible pair to it, which is equally ingrained in Allomancy and everything: the Well of Ascension. It is liquid metal, I think. Naturally, people would think that these are the 15th and 16th metal-pairs, simply by rite of being so powerful.

I don't really know. I would prefer something less paradox-laden myself.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2008, 11:17:05 PM »
What about this. I think there are only mistings of the 8 basic metals, and 6 of the 8 higher metals are availiable on ly to mistborn.  The last two, Partum, and Dispartum (what happens when we find out the real  names?) are different.  Partum can be burned by anyone, Dispartum by anyone who has burned Partum or has inherited the ability.

I also don't think Dispartum is used to destroy allomancy
Perhaps it kills you.  Whati f Dispartum too can be used by anyone, and using it, burns your entire life away in a flash.  Using it would crate a massive blast of energy ( like the power of creation) and release like a bomb.  What if Vin or Elend has to use this metal to stop Ruin??

i like the theory above the best, but here's another one, what if Dispartum is used in the creation of the inquisitors?  That would be opposite, woudln't it, one pushes mists, one pulls?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 11:22:12 PM by Comatose »
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 02:14:11 AM »
That, Comatose, Brings up another possibility looking like this.

Partum: Grants the ability of allomancy

Dispartum: Grants the ability of hemalurgy (IMO, the opposite of allomancy. See the hemalurgy thread for details)

Which would be an excellent way to explain the Lord Ruler's hemalurgy. Naturally granted through dispartum. Then the rest would be "fabricated hemaurgy."

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't a compressed and solidified form of the mists be something strikingly similar to ice? That was my first thought when I read that, and it seems to be described more as a metal. My original idea was that it was from that metallic lake that Alendi mentions in the logbook.

Anyway, it makes sense for it to be the 15th/16th metal if and only if it is possible to use the metal unconsciously and without having the ability of allomancy. The idea of burning a metal unconsciously isn't new, it's been seen every time Vin gets hurt. However, I think the only way for the person ingesting Partum unconsciously to burn it would be if the body's instinctive reaction was to somehow burn it. Then the person is a mistborn because they know how to burn metals.

Dispartum on the other hand, would cause someone to forget how they burn their metals, leaving them without allomancy.

The other option is that they are not allomantic metals, but I have not yet been able to come up with a theory on how this could work that makes sense to me.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2008, 02:55:01 AM »
I think at least one of these metals come from the lake, and remember, the mist spirit was trying to prevent Alendi's Friend Fedik from drinking from it.  Perhaps the mist spirit isn't preservation, but is the guardian of allomancy.  We already know that allomancy has strong connections to the mist, and the mist spirit showed Vin how to save elend with Partum.
Or maybe Preservation is the guardian of allomancy, just like ruin control hemalurgists.  Or maybe the mist spirit was just upholding the ideals of preservation and was trying to stop Fedik from gaining allomancy in order to prevent change from occuring.  Or maybe the metal in the lake was dispartum, and the spirit was saving Fedik's life by stabbing him.

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2008, 03:41:03 AM »
I tend to think that Ruin has direct control over Hemalurgy, and I theorize that either Ruin or Preservation has some control over Feruchemy depending on who is more free at the time. For balance's sake, I thus also tend to theorize that allomancy is controlled (if not totally, at least partially) by Preservation. However, because preservation is opposed to change, it doesn't use voices or whatnot to get what it wants. This is where your idea of soothing the wielder of the power would come into play, I think, Comatose, rather than with hemalurgy. That level of subtlety seems to me to be more preservation's style than Ruin's. I think that the mist spirit is a tool of preservation created from the mists, not preservation itself. Personally, I think we have yet to see preservation.

Personally, I want to hear what everyone thinks about the 16th metal somehow giving hemalurgy. It was a crazy idea that came spur of the moment, but I kind of like it. Of course, there is no evidence here, but I do SO love to speculate!!!
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2008, 07:25:02 PM »
You know what Andrew, I think you're right, Preservation wouldn't want to affect change direcctly himself, that would be against his nature, but with ruin influencing all these people he would have to do something, and lie breeze always says, soothing isn't telling someone what to do, or controlling them, it's just suggestion.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2008, 09:28:02 PM »
It would be some kind of aww hell moment if it turns out that the bead Elend ate has nothing to do with the Allomancy circle, and there are two other metals out there.
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