Author Topic: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.  (Read 16016 times)

Miyabi

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2008, 08:03:29 PM »
Very good point.

In any case they all relate somehow to their other metal.

I don't really see anything else this could do,
unless it somehow managed to grant them Furechemical abilities.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2008, 08:07:47 PM »
WEll if the fifteenth gives you power of allomancy for a long time, I like the theory at the start of this thread, theo one that the 16th is the liquid metal in the well that gives the power of creation, all the power you want, but in a single burst, that wears off quickly.
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Miyabi

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2008, 08:16:20 PM »
That idea seems way too omnipowerful though.

If this had been the case, then why hadn't the Lord Ruler have a private stock of it kept within Kredik Shaw?  I mean, he would have known what it did, and if it had allowed something that powerful, wouldn't he want it close to him at all times?  There is always the explanation of the ego complex though.  He could have assumed that if he ever wanted it he could just go and get it without alerting its secret to anyone.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2008, 02:41:05 AM »
yeah i tend to doubt that the 16th will take away Allomancy. Of course it would make things extremely hard for the hero which Sanderson loves but it seems too obvious. And of course the metal in the pool could be the 16th metal. The Lord Ruler does have his private stock; in the Well. Within Kredik Shaw.
He doesn't need to use it though, because with his hybrid abilities he is far more powerful than any other magic-user out there. He rules with an iron fist and his own personal squad of Inquisitors keep the law.
However, using the 16th metal in the Well doesn't come without a price. Using it directly touches the power (either Ruin or Preservation) locked in the Well; perhaps awakening the sleeping/chained Power?

The more i think about this idea the more i like it...thoughts?
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Miyabi

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2008, 07:25:00 PM »
OK!  I just had a sudden epiphany of sorts.  I have no idea where this suddenly clicked and came into place within my head, but it did.

A new theory on the 16th Metal.

What if the 16th metal isn't actually a metal at all.  What if the 16th metal is actually the mists.  We see that the 15th metal is creating power within someone, giving them the powers of allomancy.  Now we also see that the mists are starting to destroy things, kill people, etc.  AND Vin used the mists to help her defeat the Lord Ruler.  Then we see that the Deepness was subsided by the Lord Ruler.  Using the 15th metal somehow suppressed the deepness, and we also see that the mists went away at this time.

We also know that there is Ruin and Preservation. . . what if these are just the connotational names for the 15th and 16th metals.  What if the liquid in the well is actually what is creating the mists and the mists ARE the 16th metal, and it just burns differently than the others?

-Sorry my thoughts were all jumbled and everywhere, I just had to like spit this all out before I totally forgot everything I was thinking.-
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2008, 08:21:33 PM »
We also know that there is Ruin and Preservation. . . what if these are just the connotational names for the 15th and 16th metals.  What if the liquid in the well is actually what is creating the mists and the mists ARE the 16th metal, and it just burns differently than the others?

If that's the case, who was it that shouted I AM FREE at the end of WoA? Unless you think the metal can shout as well? I suppose it's probably possible, but I don't find it very likely.

I like the idea of the well power being the 16th metal. I think I stated that earlier in this thread, but I'll say it again just for fun.

That idea seems way too omnipowerful though.

Not necessarily. We don't really know how the metal works, and there could be limitations we haven't guessed. There also is a rather limited stock of this metal, so that would make it difficult for anyone to get and effectively limit it.

As an aside, can you imagine how much that metal would be worth?

Quote
If this had been the case, then why hadn't the Lord Ruler have a private stock of it kept within Kredik Shaw?  I mean, he would have known what it did, and if it had allowed something that powerful, wouldn't he want it close to him at all times?  There is always the explanation of the ego complex though.  He could have assumed that if he ever wanted it he could just go and get it without alerting its secret to anyone.

As mentioned earlier, he did have a private stock, the Well itself. Also, the metal is only there in large quantities every thousand years, and apparently the only way to get it out is to use it, so that would make it difficult to get a private stockpile.

OK!  I just had a sudden epiphany of sorts.  I have no idea where this suddenly clicked and came into place within my head, but it did.

A new theory on the 16th Metal.

What if the 16th metal isn't actually a metal at all.  What if the 16th metal is actually the mists.  We see that the 15th metal is creating power within someone, giving them the powers of allomancy.  Now we also see that the mists are starting to destroy things, kill people, etc.  AND Vin used the mists to help her defeat the Lord Ruler.  Then we see that the Deepness was subsided by the Lord Ruler.  Using the 15th metal somehow suppressed the deepness, and we also see that the mists went away at this time.

This makes sense, but also doesn't. It leaves a lot of questions. If the 16th metal isn't a metal, then what exactly is it that Elend ingested? Also, allomancy is based entirely on metals, and mist is mostly water vapor, no matter what else it has in it. It may have metal in it, but it itself isn't metal. So that would mean that the mists have to be made entirely of metal. I suppose they could be a gaseous form of some metal, though, and that same metal is what Elend ate in solid form. But then, why were they in different states of matter under fairly similar conditions? And why is the metal gaseous at outside temperature? The only metal I can think of that isn't solid at room temperature is mercury, and that one is liquid. I suppose it could work, but I'm more inclined to believe that the mists and the ability to burn them are related to allomancy, but not directly included as one of the metals.
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Miyabi

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2008, 09:02:00 PM »
If that's the case, who was it that shouted I AM FREE at the end of WoA? Unless you think the metal can shout as well? I suppose it's probably possible, but I don't find it very likely.

The power could also be holding back the strong entity which we find was hidden here.  That could simply be one of the ways in which it works, and by using it you are breaking some kind of hidden barrier, which in turn would release the thing it had been placed in front of to hold.  Read the thing at the bottom of this post for more validation on this, but what if the barrier had been formed out of mists and burning it so close, while not knowing what you're doing, released the barrier.

This makes sense, but also doesn't. It leaves a lot of questions. If the 16th metal isn't a metal, then what exactly is it that Elend ingested? Also, allomancy is based entirely on metals, and mist is mostly water vapor, no matter what else it has in it. It may have metal in it, but it itself isn't metal. So that would mean that the mists have to be made entirely of metal. I suppose they could be a gaseous form of some metal, though, and that same metal is what Elend ate in solid form. But then, why were they in different states of matter under fairly similar conditions? And why is the metal gaseous at outside temperature? The only metal I can think of that isn't solid at room temperature is mercury, and that one is liquid. I suppose it could work, but I'm more inclined to believe that the mists and the ability to burn them are related to allomancy, but not directly included as one of the metals.

I never said it wasn't metal, I just said what if it and the mists were the same thing.  Like if the metal were a very volatile substance that could easily change form.  Whereas they found it in a solid form in the end of WoA.  I'm more thinking thought that it could be very unstable in its solid state, and therefor takes on the form of the mists.  Also, have you ever seen real mists?  They don't move like rivers and don't have a ghost like consciousness hidden within them.  What if this is all part of the metal and it's power?  What if it is trying to destroy everything. 

15th metal - This is Preservation.  There are many metals in our blood, some of them more prevalent than others.  So, my thought, in an attempt to try and keep the world together, this metal runs through peoples blood.  This could explain why you have to be noble, because it could be a metal only inherited from a parent.  And different concentrations of it, or different blood types, could react differently; thus causing Mistings and Mistborns.

16th metal - This is Ruin.  This metal wants everything to die and perish.  Thus it takes on the form of mists.  Under the Lord Ruler's reign, he could control the mists, thus keeping them at bay.  Not that there is no one to control them, they have started bringing destruction about again.  The voice could have been the essence of the metal, which could have taken a physical form, reveling in the fact that it can now reign free because they broke a barrier set up by the Lord Ruler.  The thing that the Hero of Ages SHOULD have done, was use all of the power he had found to destroy the 16th metal, thus causing preservation forever.  The thing being that the Lord Ruler, wanting the power for himself, simply captured its essence and kept the power for himself.

Take this into consideration - Vin even talks about burning the mists as if they were a metal.  Steel and iron push/pull on other metals.  What if burning the mists also gave you some control over the mists.  This would explain why the mists acted like they did when the Lord Ruler was in control.  He could keep them at bay during the day, and then allow them to keep Skaa in line at night.  It could also explain the way in which the new entity was kept at bay.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2008, 12:00:52 AM »
We've discussed the likelihood of the mists being metal, we never really came up with any conclusions, as I remember.
Here's a question: What would happen if someone who is already a misting or a full mistborn ate the 15th metal.  PErhaps that's why inquisitors are such good seekers, and why they are seekers before hand.  You take a seeker, give him the metal, he becomes a msitborn with great seeking abilities.  Then add hemalurgy, with the spikes and whatever that does.  Then again, we know Vin's great seeking abilities have something to do with her earring, which makes the above theory unlikely doesn't it?  Oh well, jsut me thinking out loud.
And sorry Miyabi, I'm still not buying the Ruin and Preservation are metals thread, although I agree with what you have to say of how the powers are passed on and such, with the metals in the blood.
What if there were misting-like feruchemists as well, say ones who could only store one attribute.  Maybe the fact that the powers split up after a few generations is something unique about allomancy.  And Hemalurgy isn't genetic at all, it's only present in those given it by some sort of ritual.  Anyways, just some particualr random ramblings that came to mind.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2008, 02:09:51 AM »
What if there were misting-like feruchemists as well, say ones who could only store one attribute.† Maybe the fact that the powers split up after a few generations is something unique about allomancy.†
Thats what i've been wondering about as well...i guess we'd have to know more about whether hemalurgy and feruchemy are passed on genetically as well.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2008, 05:07:29 PM »
i guess we'd have to know more about whether hemalurgy and feruchemy are passed on genetically as well.

Surely it's fairly well established that feruchemy is hereditary?  I didn't know anyone was questioning that.

As for hemalurgy, that's a different story.  Some people theorize that it may be, in part, hereditary to the skaa, but I don't think we'll know much for sure for another few months.   :)
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2008, 08:12:57 PM »
eh, sry i was doing like three things when i wrote that, forgot all about TLR's culling of the Keepers :( Still, it would be nice to know what prerequisites are neccesary to use hemalurgy. After all, surely there must be more than simply making sacrifices and sticking metal in yourself.

Perhaps Allomancy is required? The only Hemalurgists we know of are also Allomancers.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2008, 11:21:40 PM »
I'm continueing this thought on the hemalurgy thread.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2008, 12:49:10 AM »
Quote
15th metal - This is Preservation. †There are many metals in our blood, some of them more prevalent than others. †So, my thought, in an attempt to try and keep the world together, this metal runs through peoples blood. †This could explain why you have to be noble, because it could be a metal only inherited from a parent. †And different concentrations of it, or different blood types, could react differently; thus causing Mistings and Mistborns.

The only problem with that is that your parents wouldn't be able to pass that much of the metal on to you, and after you were born the only way for you to get more metal is to take it from your parents blood (assuming of course, that there is no other source of this metal.). Because of that, the number of mistborn/mistings should have decreased at a far greater rate than it did.

Quote
16th metal - This is Ruin.  This metal wants everything to die and perish.  Thus it takes on the form of mists.  Under the Lord Ruler's reign, he could control the mists, thus keeping them at bay.  Not that there is no one to control them, they have started bringing destruction about again.  The voice could have been the essence of the metal, which could have taken a physical form, reveling in the fact that it can now reign free because they broke a barrier set up by the Lord Ruler.  The thing that the Hero of Ages SHOULD have done, was use all of the power he had found to destroy the 16th metal, thus causing preservation forever.  The thing being that the Lord Ruler, wanting the power for himself, simply captured its essence and kept the power for himself.


So what you're saying is that the hero of ages should completely destroy Ruin? The problem with this is that then you are left only with preservation. Therefore, nothing changes, and the world slows into stagnation. There has to be balance for the world to work.

Quote
Take this into consideration - Vin even talks about burning the mists as if they were a metal.  Steel and iron push/pull on other metals.  What if burning the mists also gave you some control over the mists.  This would explain why the mists acted like they did when the Lord Ruler was in control.  He could keep them at bay during the day, and then allow them to keep Skaa in line at night.  It could also explain the way in which the new entity was kept at bay.

So wait...You're suggesting a Third Entity that we haven't heard about yet? That seems to me like an unnecessary complication. It seems to me that Brandon would have mentioned a third entity if it existed.

Also, the ting about burning the mists allowing you to control them is plausible, but I don't really agree. Vin burns the mist, agreed. Brandon establishes that this is related to allomancy. The mists are, themselves related to allomancy. The problem is that the mists are (according to Brandon from his MB 1 Annotations Ch 38 pt 3) related to the mythology of the world and the magic systems on a foundational level. The mists are affected not only by allomancy, but also by hemalurgy, as evidenced by the inquisitors, Vin, and Zane. So I see them as being a kind of transition area between the systems, and also between Ruin and Preservation. I think that the Deepness was a result of Ruin controlling the mists, and now that Ruin is free, it can control them again.

If there was doubt as to the fact that the force released at the Well is Ruin, it is cleared up here. Product Description for HoA, Amazon.

Quote
Who is the Hero of Ages?

To end the Final Empire and restore freedom, Vin killed the Lord Ruler. But as a result, the Deepness---the lethal form of the ubiquitous mists---is back, along with increasingly heavy ashfalls and ever more powerful earthquakes. Humanity appears to be doomed.

Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world. Vin is consumed with guilt at having been tricked into releasing the mystic force known as Ruin from the Well. Ruin wants to end the world, and its near omniscience and ability to warp reality make stopping it seem impossible. She canít even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!

The conclusion of the Mistborn trilogy fulfills all the promise of the first two books. Revelations abound, connections rooted in early chapters of the series click into place, and surprises, as satisfying as they are stunning, blossom like fireworks to dazzle and delight. It all leads up to a finale unmatched for originality and audacity that will leave readers rubbing their eyes in wonder, as if awaking from an amazing dream.

Emphasis mine, of course. But you see what I mean.

Also, I'm still confused, in what way would the Lord Ruler have used the mist to keep the skaa in line at night? Unless you were simply referring to him planting superstitions among them?

We've discussed the likelihood of the mists being metal, we never really came up with any conclusions, as I remember.
Here's a question: What would happen if someone who is already a misting or a full mistborn ate the 15th metal.  PErhaps that's why inquisitors are such good seekers, and why they are seekers before hand.  You take a seeker, give him the metal, he becomes a msitborn with great seeking abilities.  Then add hemalurgy, with the spikes and whatever that does.  Then again, we know Vin's great seeking abilities have something to do with her earring, which makes the above theory unlikely doesn't it?  Oh well, jsut me thinking out loud.
And sorry Miyabi, I'm still not buying the Ruin and Preservation are metals thread, although I agree with what you have to say of how the powers are passed on and such, with the metals in the blood.
What if there were misting-like feruchemists as well, say ones who could only store one attribute.  Maybe the fact that the powers split up after a few generations is something unique about allomancy.  And Hemalurgy isn't genetic at all, it's only present in those given it by some sort of ritual.  Anyways, just some particualr random ramblings that came to mind.

I was actually wondering about the what would happen if you fed a mistborn the 15th metal thing earlier. My guess is...Absolutely Nothing!!! As a side note, I can't recall ever having confirmation that Vin's seeking abilities are due to her bronze earring, just our wild speculation that seems most likely to be right.

eh, sry i was doing like three things when i wrote that, forgot all about TLR's culling of the Keepers :( Still, it would be nice to know what prerequisites are neccesary to use hemalurgy. After all, surely there must be more than simply making sacrifices and sticking metal in yourself.

Perhaps Allomancy is required? The only Hemalurgists we know of are also Allomancers.

The only Hemalurgists we know for sure that can use allomancy are Vin, Zane, and Marsh. And the Lord Ruler. I might have missed some. I agree that the others are likely allomancers, but I hesitate to just establish that as fact.

I'm continueing this thought on the hemalurgy thread.

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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2008, 10:34:29 PM »
Oh dark gods of forum posting! I call upon thy strength to reanimate the soul of this dead topic!

Okay, so it's necroposting, but I feel there's sufficient new material to resurrect this thread.

In Brandon's blog post about Issac being at the release party, he posted an image of a new metals poster they're working on. The link is http://www.monkeysloth.net/brandon/graphics/IsaacStewartConfirmedatProvoLaunchPartyH_C379/PosterPrelim.jpg

On this chart, we're most concerned with the bottom-left hand corner.


If you look closely, you can see that Aluminum, the Internal Pulling metal, and Duralumin, the Internal Pushing metal, are the fifteenth and sixteenth metals, respectively.

This means that the other two Enhancement metals are external, which may support the theory that Elend's metal is not on the wheel.
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Re: The 16th metal's power--Potential spoilers.
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2008, 10:40:53 PM »
It's hard to read, but it looks to me like the 13th metal is Chromium.  I can't make out its alloy.  Anyone have better eyes?
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