Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 105808 times)

Qarlin

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 267
  • Fell Points: 0
  • The idiotic cock-eyed flum-dummery!
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #540 on: October 02, 2008, 05:32:00 PM »
Oy! Full sisters means either twins, or that Prelan just didn't try very hard to kill her.

VegasDev

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #541 on: October 02, 2008, 06:01:41 PM »
Oy! Full sisters means either twins, or that Prelan just didn't try very hard to kill her.

It's a tough call; Vin refers to her as her baby sister. What that means is anyone's guess.
Now you've got all the ones with beards on one side and all the
moustaches on the other.

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #542 on: October 02, 2008, 07:39:34 PM »
There could be another explanation.  We don't know what effects Hemallurgy has on the children of someone with a spike, and since Vin's Mom heard voices (which we believe to be Ruin), then she had a spike.  She may have passed abilities on to her children, and the combination of her Hemallurgy and the Prelan's Allomancy is what makes her so unusually strong.  Besides that, Hemallurgy may not need a Misting to enhance a power that already exists in a person.  Of course, if this is true then the Seeker theory is kinda blown.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

VegasDev

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #543 on: October 02, 2008, 07:48:44 PM »
Regarding the seeker theory, Kelsier assumed that all Inquisitors were Seekers based solely on the fact that they could detect Allomancy, hunting down part-ska Allomancers and other Allomancy abusers. However he did admit that he could be wrong and that Inquisitors may have another power unrelated to Allomancy.
Now you've got all the ones with beards on one side and all the
moustaches on the other.

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #544 on: October 02, 2008, 07:49:02 PM »
There could be another explanation.  We don't know what effects Hemallurgy has on the children of someone with a spike, and since Vin's Mom heard voices (which we believe to be Ruin), then she had a spike.  She may have passed abilities on to her children, and the combination of her Hemallurgy and the Prelan's Allomancy is what makes her so unusually strong.  Besides that, Hemallurgy may not need a Misting to enhance a power that already exists in a person.  Of course, if this is true then the Seeker theory is kinda blown.

Note: I do not believe that the voice was Ruin. There's no evidence to support the fact that Ruin had any influence on the world during the Lord Ruler's reign.
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

SarahG

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 544
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #545 on: October 02, 2008, 08:39:43 PM »
Note: I do not believe that the voice was Ruin. There's no evidence to support the fact that Ruin had any influence on the world during the Lord Ruler's reign.

Do you believe that the voice Zane heard was Ruin's?  Because he'd been hearing that all his life.  Do you believe that the voice Marsh heard was Ruin's?  Because it would be strange for some Hemalurgists to hear Ruin's voice while other Hemalurgically-pierced people heard someone else's voice.

I don't know that I'd say there's no evidence.  No evidence that you accept, perhaps.
He ate my horse.

VegasDev

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #546 on: October 02, 2008, 08:49:19 PM »
That all leads back to the question: How and when did Zane get his spike?
Now you've got all the ones with beards on one side and all the
moustaches on the other.

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #547 on: October 02, 2008, 10:22:07 PM »
Well, I didn't know that Zane heard the voices all his life. That's more me just not paying attention to any of Zane's viewpoints... seriously, I've been corrected numerous about Zane. I'll happily concede that fact :P.

But why would Ruin control Zane and Vin's mom but not the twenty Steel Inquisitors throughout the Final Empire? It's possible the Lord Ruler put in some sort of Allomantic safeguard to protect the Inquisitors from Ruin, but it seems unlikely, especially if he had knowledge about Ruin (he said "what I do for mankind", which suggests to me that the Lord Ruler knows about Ruin on some level) that he would create the Inquisitors if Ruin had any power to control them.

The only explanation for if Zane and Vin's mom heard Ruin's voice would be because Ruin was extremely weakened by the Lord Ruler (ostensibly with whichever method the Lord Ruler did to protect against Ruin/Deepness), but not COMPLETELY nullified. Thus, Ruin only had enough power to begin grooming Vin to be Hero of Ages. It's possible, I'll admit, especially if there is proof that Zane heard voices all his life. Then that would definitely be the plausible scenario.

I'll try to look for it when I begin my reread through of MB1 and 2.
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

SarahG

  • Level 13
  • *
  • Posts: 544
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #548 on: October 02, 2008, 10:39:36 PM »
I'm not sure I remember there being specific proof that Zane heard God's voice all his life; I only know that he thought he was insane because of it.  Now that I think about it, it could have been that he only recently started hearing the voices, in the last year, since TLR's death.  However, I don't know how Zane would explain his sudden "insanity" to himself, nor how Straff would account for it; I think both of them give the impression of having lived with and come to terms with Zane's strange mental state.  You can tell us, when you've finished rereading, if you find anything more specific on the matter.

Still, we know that Vin's mother heard voices before TLR's death, and it seems strange to me that there would be multiple types of voices that people hear in these books.  The fact that they all hear voices seems to indicate (tenuously, at least) that they all hear the same voice.
He ate my horse.

Reaves

  • Level 23
  • *
  • Posts: 1226
  • Fell Points: 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #549 on: October 02, 2008, 11:11:46 PM »
I definitely got the impression Zane had been hearing voices for his entire life. However it also seems impossible that the Inquisitors have been under the control of Ruin all this time if TLR knew about Ruin's abilities to affect hemalurgists mentally and actually was trying to prevent Ruin from escaping the Well.
Quote from: VegasDev
RJF: "AHA! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Cairhien, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a warder when he is only the distraction! Get him Rand! Buzzzzzzz!

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #550 on: October 03, 2008, 05:08:41 AM »
Well... wouldn't he rationalize the sudden voices by claiming that he's insane? Lol.

Though, I do agree that Straff seemed to come to terms with Zane's insanity.

Still, we know that Vin's mother heard voices before TLR's death, and it seems strange to me that there would be multiple types of voices that people hear in these books.  The fact that they all hear voices seems to indicate (tenuously, at least) that they all hear the same voice.

Actually, there is a definite instance where there is a voice which isn't Ruin's. At the end of MB2, Sazed fights Marsh:

Quote from: MB2 Page 564 Hardback
"I'm sorry," Marsh said again, then raised a hand and Pushed the bag at Sazed.

The pouch shot across the room and hit Sazed, ripping, the bits of metal inside tearing into Sazed's flesh. He didn't have to look down to know how badly he was injured. Oddly, he could no longer feel his pain--but he could feel the blood, warm, on his stomach and legs.

I'm... sory, too, Sazed thought as the room grew dark, and he fell to his knees. I've failed... though I know not at what. I can't even answer Marsh's question. I don't know why I came here.

He felt himself dying. It was an odd experience. His mind was resigned, yet confused, yet frustrated, yet slowly... having... trouble...

Those weren't coins, a voice seemed to whisper.

The thought rattled in his dying mind.

The bag Marsh shot at you. Those weren't coins. They were rings, Sazed. Eight of them. You took out two--eyesight and hearing. You left the other ones where they were.

In the pouch, tucked into your sash.

There's also an instance where Elend hears a voice when he kills that one koloss, but I don't remember where that one is explicitly.

As for this quote, there is no reason why Ruin would TELL Sazed these were rings if Marsh was controlled by Ruin. None at all. If you can think of one, I would be rightfully impressed, though. Besides, I know the quote was brought up before and Ookla said "why would Ruin be talking with Sazed there?".

However, when I typed this out, I noticed some more things I didn't before. Firstly, the metal rings are sticking in Sazed's flesh, so let's assume for a moment that this is Hemalurgy, much like how it operates for Inquisitors. They key thing here is that something else--and if not Ruin, I think Preservation is the only possible source for the voice--spoke to Sazed. If it is indeed Preservation talking, then we can assume that Ruin does NOT have exclusive control over Hemalurgy. So take note, everyone who thinks there is a Hemalurgy/Allomancy combined with a Ruin/Preservation duality.

Ruin does not have exclusive control over Hemalurgy. Likewise, Sazed (or Elend) don't hear the voices more because they have that inclination to not pierce their body's with metal. So, likewise, one could previously assume that the mist spirit COULD be Preservation, and that is linked with Allomancy. However, if Ruin does not have exclusive control over Hemalurgy, then Preservation needs not have exclusive control over Allomancy.

Now, one could make the argument, "If Preservation can talk via Hemalurgy, why doesn't it do so with Vin and stop Ruin's plan?". To that, I don't have an answer. Wait... okay, I'm thinking this out as I type, and I don't think Sazed's rings up there that pierce his flesh have a blood sacrifice (except for his own, which I don't believe counts). Hemalurgy... without a blood sacrifice? That seems to defy everything we know about Hemalurgy. Perhaps Preservation talks to people who have metals without sacrifices and Ruin talks to people who have sacrificially-imbued metals, or perhaps Hemalurgy requires a blood sacrifice, but Ruin/Preservation talking through the metals does not require a sacrifice.

Interesting.

The other thing that I noticed was, "Oddly, he could no longer feel his pain--but he could feel the blood, warm, on his stomach and legs.". Is it "odd" to no longer feel pain? Could this be a Hemalurgical property we don't know about yet?
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

Qarlin

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 267
  • Fell Points: 0
  • The idiotic cock-eyed flum-dummery!
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #551 on: October 03, 2008, 05:41:31 AM »
If anything, I think Vin couldn't hear Preservation because of her earring. Same reason she couldn't draw on the mists.

kbob_o

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #552 on: October 03, 2008, 04:31:14 PM »
There's also an instance where Elend hears a voice when he kills that one koloss, but I don't remember where that one is explicitly.

Was Elend pierced? I can't remember that... but I didn't think he was.

Qarlin

  • Level 8
  • *
  • Posts: 267
  • Fell Points: 0
  • The idiotic cock-eyed flum-dummery!
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #553 on: October 03, 2008, 04:58:53 PM »
not hemalurgically, no.

EDIT: Not that we know of...

happyman

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 828
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #554 on: October 03, 2008, 06:41:47 PM »
Oy! Full sisters means either twins, or that Prelan just didn't try very hard to kill her.

It's a tough call; Vin refers to her as her baby sister. What that means is anyone's guess.

I found a reference that applies here:

Quote
It wasn't much.  But, then, Vin wasn't sure she wanted to think about her mother all that much.  The woman had, after all, tried to kill Vin.  In fact, she had killed Vin's full sister(emphasis added).  Only the actions of Reen, Vin's half brother(emphasis added), had saved her.
P. 42, WoA, paperback (Chapter 5)

This quote makes it clear that the sister was fully her sister, but Reen only her half-brother.  Now that I look at it, the phraseology is slightly awkward; the relationships must be important...
Nature hates being reified.