Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 100484 times)

Miyabi

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #480 on: August 18, 2008, 08:54:30 PM »
I love how you say back to topic then talk about something other than Hemalurgy. ROFL.  J/K

I don't think Ruin could see into the future, I just think it knew Vin was the HoA.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #481 on: August 18, 2008, 08:58:24 PM »
Maybe ruin is after what preservation already had, a body with all 3 systems. I don't really know how it would work but it's my crazy theory of the day
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Miyabi

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #482 on: August 18, 2008, 09:34:56 PM »
That's an interesting thought, but I don't think it would work, I mean TLR wasn't completely of preservation really.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #483 on: August 19, 2008, 01:20:04 AM »
Good day all. New to this forum, so pardon any unintentional faux pas on my part.

Without a more solid foundation than speculation (no matter how well thought out!) for the theory that Ruin/Preservation may be directly linked to one or more of the Power systems of the land, I find it difficult to ascribe such a linkage. Granted, if one exists, it would surely be between Ruin and Hemallurgy, given the deadly and bloody nature of gaining access to this Power system. I do find it plausible that the events of Vin receiving the brass earing could qualify as a sacrifice fit to confer Hemallurgy upon the recipient, and while the parallels are there, no textual hints or foreshadowings that such is true can be found.

I enjoy and appreciate the theorization, my problem is that I am a technical analyst by nature, and more likely to apply Occam than to stretch out with potential theories. The things that are known without doubt are the existence of the three Power systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemallurgy); the mists, which are governed by a force which TLR kept at bay (presumably by a hybrid application of all three Power systems); the being at the WoA, which Rashak (rightly?) chose not to release upon his ascension but which Vin freed.

The being at the WoA is not directly tied to the mists, since the mists began advancing after TLR's demise, including selectively causing deaths of some, but not others; and this is before Vin releases the being in the Well at the end of MB2.

I believe there is good confidence for the idea that the Inquisitors' allomantic abilities and superior steel sensitivity are a hemallurgical trait; that there is strength to the theory that a malevolent force (Ruin?) can touch those who have hemallurgical attributes (Zane's 'insanity', Marsh's need to take actions he can't explain and wouldn't normally approve). But I would sooner think that the Inquisitors' remarkable healing ability is a function of hemallurgy's affect on pewter, than a connection to a more spiritual force.

Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.
The preceding message posted entirely by ]Accident[, intentionally.

Miyabi

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #484 on: August 19, 2008, 01:53:08 AM »
Here's a though that reading accident's post brought to mind.  (Welcome BTW.)

The only proof we have that Vin's mother did what she was from Reen. . . . what if it really was REEN who killed the sister and blamed it on the mother?
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #485 on: August 19, 2008, 02:04:13 AM »
Good day all. New to this forum, so pardon any unintentional faux pas on my part.

Without a more solid foundation than speculation (no matter how well thought out!) for the theory that Ruin/Preservation may be directly linked to one or more of the Power systems of the land, I find it difficult to ascribe such a linkage. Granted, if one exists, it would surely be between Ruin and Hemallurgy, given the deadly and bloody nature of gaining access to this Power system. I do find it plausible that the events of Vin receiving the brass earing could qualify as a sacrifice fit to confer Hemallurgy upon the recipient, and while the parallels are there, no textual hints or foreshadowings that such is true can be found.

Firstly, welcome to timewasters guide! Hope you continue to post in the future.

And, we assume that there is a link between Ruin and Hemalurgy because hemalurgists are decidedly...Ruin-ish. They're all either insane or possessed. Except Vin, and she only has an earring. So, really, we have as much to suggest that they are as that they aren't.

(presumably by a hybrid application of all three Power systems); the being at the WoA, which Rashak (rightly?) chose not to release upon his ascension but which Vin freed.

Woah...not theorizing, huh? Where did that come from? Hybrid application of the three magic systems? Never heard that before, though I kind of like it. Care to elaborate?

I believe there is good confidence for the idea that the Inquisitors' allomantic abilities and superior steel sensitivity are a hemallurgical trait; that there is strength to the theory that a malevolent force (Ruin?) can touch those who have hemallurgical attributes (Zane's 'insanity', Marsh's need to take actions he can't explain and wouldn't normally approve). But I would sooner think that the Inquisitors' remarkable healing ability is a function of hemallurgy's affect on pewter, than a connection to a more spiritual force.

We would sooner think the same as you. I don't recall anyone saying Inquisitor's healing ability was because of Ruin. In fact, we kind of assumed it was hemalurgy. And, as mentioned, we're almost positive that ruin can influence/control hemalurgists. And actually, Inquisitor's steel sensitivity is just because they are very well practiced in allomancy. And they can use allomancy (ok, not for sure, but I think there's more evidence this way than the other), so they don't need hemalurgy to do those things. (unless hemalurgy grants allomancy)

Quote from: MB2 Annotation Ch 12
By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody--at least, nobody the heroes know--is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.

Ahh, coma's favorite pet theory again. Yeah, we debunked that one forever ago. Even comatose disagrees with it now...I think.

Here's a though that reading accident's post brought to mind.  (Welcome BTW.)

The only proof we have that Vin's mother did what she was from Reen. . . . what if it really was REEN who killed the sister and blamed it on the mother?


Possible, but it doesn't really matter at this point, except that it seems that Vin's mom could give her hemalurgy and Reen (most likely) couldn't.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #486 on: August 19, 2008, 02:41:35 AM »
Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.
Ahh, coma's favorite pet theory again. Yeah, we debunked that one forever ago. Even comatose disagrees with it now...I think.
That was debunked?
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Andrew the Great

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #487 on: August 19, 2008, 02:43:34 AM »
Not that the lord ruler gave the nobles allomancy and such. I was referring to the whole bit about access to the power systems and the difference between the skaa and nobles. Coma's Skaa magic theory.
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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #488 on: August 19, 2008, 03:38:28 AM »
Oh, okay, I didn't realize you were agreeing with ]Accident[.
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Miyabi

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #489 on: August 19, 2008, 03:40:03 AM »
Yes, I was confused for a minute there too.  I was like. . wait. . . I thought we agreed with that one already.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #490 on: August 19, 2008, 04:32:42 AM »
But it was such a good theory!... While it lasted. :( :D
Anyways, back to business. Ham does quote several differences between Skaa and Nobility: height (which Kelsier dismisses), and the Balance, which hasn't been explained yet.  And the inquisitors DO have "uses," for skaa allomancers.  But I have "seen the light," and have decided that the Skaa have no magic system of their own, and of the same nationality (or many nationalities, as the Lord Ruler blurred many countries all together), and the only difference is the Lord Ruler's favour, and allomancy.  However, if I was right (which I now doubt) I reserve the right to brag, and say "I told you so," one numerous occaisions.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #491 on: August 19, 2008, 04:45:17 AM »
Good day all. New to this forum, so pardon any unintentional faux pas on my part.

Indeed welcome! It's always a good day when new people show up. To celebrate this goodness, I'm going to make a few corrections where I may . . .

(presumably by a hybrid application of all three Power systems); the being at the WoA, which Rashak (rightly?) chose not to release upon his ascension but which Vin freed.

Woah...not theorizing, huh? Where did that come from? Hybrid application of the three magic systems? Never heard that before, though I kind of like it. Care to elaborate?

I've always noted how Hemalurgy repels the mists, and how one of the major things The Lord Ruler did was to "push away" the deepness. Hmmmmm . . . . >.>

I believe there is good confidence for the idea that the Inquisitors' allomantic abilities and superior steel sensitivity are a hemallurgical trait; that there is strength to the theory that a malevolent force (Ruin?) can touch those who have hemallurgical attributes (Zane's 'insanity', Marsh's need to take actions he can't explain and wouldn't normally approve). But I would sooner think that the Inquisitors' remarkable healing ability is a function of hemallurgy's affect on pewter, than a connection to a more spiritual force.

We would sooner think the same as you. I don't recall anyone saying Inquisitor's healing ability was because of Ruin. In fact, we kind of assumed it was hemalurgy. And, as mentioned, we're almost positive that ruin can influence/control hemalurgists. And actually, Inquisitor's steel sensitivity is just because they are very well practiced in allomancy. And they can use allomancy (ok, not for sure, but I think there's more evidence this way than the other), so they don't need hemalurgy to do those things. (unless hemalurgy grants allomancy)

Agreed but for one point on semantics. Inquisitors use Allomancy. They see via Allomantic lines as shown in MB3 Prologue. However, this does not necessarily mean that they have Allomancy. Just that they have access to it's abilities. Inquisitors' Allomantic abilities could stem from the Hemalurgic rituals. (Or Hemalurgy itself.) This would mean that they might not be able to do things like burn the mists. Just a thought


[MB2 Annotation Ch 12]

Some speculation has come up regarding potential differences between the noble class and the skaa regarding access to Power systems, which I would reject. Elend spent a great deal of time and effort to prove to himself, and later the rest of the nobility, that there was no real difference beyond the favor of TLR. That effort, as a major sub-theme, is wasted if there are real differences. Given Elend's transformation at the WoA, it seems likely that Rashak granted the same to his favored friends after his ascension, and made laws prohibiting interbreeding with those outside of his favor, establishing the separation of classes among the people. A thousand years of breeding diluted the noble class to the point that being an Allomancer became rare, and Mistborn extremely rare.

Ahh, coma's favorite pet theory again. Yeah, we debunked that one forever ago. Even comatose disagrees with it now...I think.

While it's true that I think there weren't any difference between Skaa and nobles when The Lord Ruler ascended, I think it's plausible that some traits, such as the Balance Elend mentions, arose after a thousand years of breeding segregation. (Or The Lord Ruler could have changed them genetically using the Well of Ascension.) However, they are still the same species and probably not any more different than say two nations on Earth are. For more information check Comatose's post, which was written as I wrote this up.

Without a more solid foundation than speculation (no matter how well thought out!) for the theory that Ruin/Preservation may be directly linked to one or more of the Power systems of the land, I find it difficult to ascribe such a linkage. [. . .]

I suppose it depends on how you use the word link. For me, Ruin being able to at least talk to every Hemalurgist we know of constitutes a link. Inquisitors, Zane, Vin, Vin's mom?, all of them hear Ruin's voice, and they're all Hemalurgists. (Although Vin was inside the Well of Ascension at the time, so she was pretty close to him.)

The being at the WoA is not directly tied to the mists, since the mists began advancing after TLR's demise, including selectively causing deaths of some, but not others; and this is before Vin releases the being in the Well at the end of MB2.

However Ruin can affect things in the world before he gets freed. Zane hears voices, words written down and in metalminds are changing, stuff which is all ascribable to Ruin. I believe the current theory as to why this happens right after The Lord Ruler's death is because he was a force of Preservation. (Which he was, regardless of whether he actually had Preservation's power or not. The Lord Ruler stagnated the world for a thousand years, making the world "a little bit frozen in time" as Brandon says in Annotation: Mistborn: The Final Empire - Prologue Part II.)
I came because I heard stories, tales of a lengendary man.
A man who was known as the Lord of the Mists, a man they named Survivor.
A man called Hope.

Comatose

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #492 on: August 19, 2008, 05:04:52 AM »
Quote
Agreed but for one point on semantics. Inquisitors use Allomancy. They see via Allomantic lines as shown in MB3 Prologue. However, this does not necessarily mean that they have Allomancy. Just that they have access to it's abilities. Inquisitors' Allomantic abilities could stem from the Hemalurgic rituals. (Or Hemalurgy itself.) This would mean that they might not be able to do things like burn the mists. Just a thought

I thought we debunked the "Mist Burning," theory as while, but I guess not ;).  Anyways, I won't get into that right now.  I really liked your point about the Lord Ruler "pushing," away the mists.  Perhaps this also has something to do with Kredik Shaw, it is the "Hill of a Thousand Spires," and has many SPIKES sticking out of it.  This is very similar to hemalurgy besides the fact that there is no blood involved (that we know of).  Perhaps it is some sort of huge Hemalurgic construct, built over the well so Ruin couldn't meet up with the deepness again, notice how the Deepness began at the edges of the Empire and didn't come to Luthadel until the end.  This could be because of the well, but who knows?  There is also the matter of the black fog in the well room.  What in the world is that?
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Andrew the Great

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #493 on: August 19, 2008, 05:17:19 AM »
We tried to debunk the mist burning, but couldn't. Kind of like we tried to debunk the kredik shaw as a hemalurgical construct, but couldn't. For the lord ruler to push back the deepness mists, that would take some INTENSE hemalurgy.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #494 on: August 19, 2008, 05:20:51 AM »
We tried to debunk the mist burning, but couldn't. Kind of like we tried to debunk the kredik shaw as a hemalurgical construct, but couldn't. For the lord ruler to push back the deepness mists, that would take some INTENSE hemalurgy.

That's because it's true.  Meaning the Kredik Shaw theory (maybe).  I thought we went over though how the mist be burned up, and it being repelled would look completely different, and since Elend says it's pushing away, it means it's pushing away, not vanishing.
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