Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 67616 times)

GreenMonsta

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #435 on: July 31, 2008, 03:42:33 AM »
ok that sounds like it makes alot of sense. i could understand that the metal used for the peircing would amplify the allomancers power but i still dont understand why a peircing in general would allow Ruin any control with hemalurgy. i wont get that until i read it so im ok with it. i also would tend to believe that if (more likely than not) the peircings allow Ruin any measure of control than the size could be a major player in the amount of control.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #436 on: July 31, 2008, 03:51:14 AM »
I also don't understand why he seems to get this control. But the only connection between the inquisitors and zane is hemalugry.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #437 on: July 31, 2008, 04:57:19 AM »
I also don't understand why he seems to get this control. But the only connection between the inquisitors and zane is hemalugry.
Which would once again link Hemalurgy to Ruin, Feruchemy to Preservation, and leave Allomancy in some middle ground.
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Czanos

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #438 on: July 31, 2008, 05:45:04 AM »
As far as I know, Feruchemy has never been linked to Preservation.  As a matter of fact, I'd say Allomancy is more opposite of Hemalurgy, and the fact that the Mist Spirit uses Allomancy points to Preservation being linked to Allomancy instead of Feruchemy.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #439 on: July 31, 2008, 03:24:47 PM »
i think its time we all gave ourselves a pat on the back for reaching page 30.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #440 on: July 31, 2008, 05:17:30 PM »
As far as I know, Feruchemy has never been linked to Preservation.  As a matter of fact, I'd say Allomancy is more opposite of Hemalurgy, and the fact that the Mist Spirit uses Allomancy points to Preservation being linked to Allomancy instead of Feruchemy.
It's talked about quite a bit off and on in the Ruin and Preservation thread about why it would be that way.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #441 on: August 02, 2008, 12:28:22 AM »
even though the topic may have been covered in another thread, i find it more likely that Preservation is linked to Allomancy. Mainly due to the fact that it has been show that the mist spirit can use Allomancy and Ruin as of yet cannot. Feruchemy on the other hand seems like it may ba able to be traced to the Terris Worldbringers. im aware there is no mention of this difinitively in the books but for some reason i find the Worldbringers and the Keepers to be along a similar line. i wouldnt be surprised if Feruchemy was around before the ascention, if this were true than it would leave none of the known powers were created by the Lord Ruler.

I kinda just came to that while i was writing but i think it makes sense. If Preservation can use Allomacy and Ruin Hermalurgy and both bodies existed before the ascention then so probably did the powers they used. And if it turns out Feruchemy is just an evolved version of what the World Bringers had than that would place all of the known powers in existance before the Lord Ruler.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #442 on: August 02, 2008, 03:59:10 AM »
We should move this to the Ruin/Pres thread, but the main argument for Feruchemy for preservation is that they attain the ability to attain and store things for later use, which seems VERY MUCH like preservation.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #443 on: August 02, 2008, 06:04:01 AM »
Agreed, I often dont know how to move to a differnt thread. How do you take an active conversation from one thread and move it to another? A lot of the conversation is included in the ability to scroll back and read how it began. Not criticizing just asking due to lack of expirience. :)
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #444 on: August 02, 2008, 06:40:58 AM »
It's sort of haphazard, GreenMonsta. There isn't a real option to move a conversation to a different (I really wish there was), you just need to do a lot of quoting.

There's a lot for me to comment on this thread. I think I'll just comment on this one, though:

Do we know of  any reason the Inquisitors would especially want Marsh in their ranks? That always seemed kind of rushed to me, they didn't really do a thorough backround check or anything like that just grabbed him, inadvertently allowing him to infiltrate them. Now we see that even his full induction was rushed; they didn't even bother to bring him back to Kredik Shaw, just used what was there.
They say he was a good actor and good at what he did.  He could simply have been such an amazing prospect they didn't care about his background or care to wait for him.

Or maybe it was another of Ruin's plots...

I do not believe Marsh's induction into the Inquisitors was a devious plot by Ruin. In fact, I am steadfastly convinced Ruin did not have any ability to influence the world while the Lord Ruler was alive. The Lord Ruler said "You don't know what I do for mankind". I take this to mean he is keeping Ruin at bay, so that the Deepness would not return. From what I've seen, there is no evidence in MB1 that suggests Ruin did have any power for devious plotting. The way I see it, whatever it is the Lord Ruler was doing was keeping a very good hold on Ruin, because obviously, once the hold was gone, we began to see the evidence for Ruin's existence via the killing mists and voices.

(Side note: We also don't see any mist spirits in MB1. The Lord Ruler could have a similar hold on Preservation to prevent the manifestation of such a mist spirit.)

Besides, the Lord Ruler, as evil as he was, is extremely intelligent. I seem to remember that in an annotation Brandon said "The Lord Ruler knew lots of things that most people didn't know." or something along those lines. He has a significant amount of knowledge of Hemalurgy to create the Inquisitors, and has an incredible grasp of Allomantic and Feruchemical theory in order to make himself so powerful. The Lord Ruler, both knowing about Hemalurgy and of Ruin's existence (because he is actively holding Ruin at bay. He wouldn't be able to do this if he didn't know what it was), would not create an army of super-Mistborn like the Steel Inquisitors if he knew that Ruin could so easily get a hold on them. I think the logical explanation is either: 1. He was not aware of Ruin's power to influence metals, merely that it was killing mists or 2. The Lord Ruler was aware of that ability of Ruin, but, he never anticipated on actually dying. He wouldn't have anything to fear from creating the Inquisitors which could potentially be controlled by Ruin because the Lord Ruler was keeping Ruin at bay. Problem solved, for him.

The problems began to arise when he died. The thing that the Lord Ruler was doing to keep Ruin from manipulating the world (note that what the Lord Ruler was doing is separate from Ruin being imprisoned at the Well of Ascension. This is totally something we have no knowledge about) is gone, so Ruin came back to its senses. It began to exert its will onto the tools that had been created right in front of him: the Steel Inquisitors and Zane.

Now that I think about it, Ruin must have some way to sense what people are thinking. He couldn't manipulate them, but merely be aware of them. Follow my reasoning: all throughout MB2, Ruin was cultivating events to make Vin begin to think she was the Hero of Ages in order to go to the Well and free Ruin. The basis for Vin's thought process on the matter, though, is that she and the Lord Ruler can do things normal Allomancers can't do (like pierce copperclouds). I would think Ruin would need to sense this perception in Vin's mind. From there, Ruin knew he had a pawn or tool that was easy for him to utilize, just like the Inquisitors and the Terris Prophecies.

The most important thing I am saying overall is that Ruin did not do scheming in the Lord Ruler's time. It was only after the Lord Ruler's hold on Ruin ended that its plan began to set in motion. We cannot even be sure if Ruin was aware of what was happening in the world while the Lord Ruler was in power. Ruin could have just have come out of the equivalent of a deep abyss and see all of the pawns in front of him and say to itself, "It's time to set my plan into motion."

...That should really have gone in the Ruin and Preservation thread.
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Czanos

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #445 on: August 02, 2008, 08:06:15 AM »
Or, GM, for the more practical of us, you go like this . . .

--- Discussion moved to page 18 of the Ruin and Preservation thread ---


. . . So, about that Hemalurgy. . .
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #446 on: August 02, 2008, 05:58:41 PM »
You know... I disagree. I think that whether allomancy or feruchemy is related to preservation has some relevance to hemalurgy. I think it's allomancy, by the way.

And I shall comment on Chaos' post over on Ruin and Preservation
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Miyabi

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #447 on: August 02, 2008, 06:23:37 PM »
I believe that Hemalurgy was the first magic system to exist in the land for the following reasons.

1 - What we get from the books makes it seem that there was no such thing as Allomancy until TLR took control.
    -It says in many places that Allomancy was given to the nobility by TLR after his rise to power.

2 - We saw that there were hints of Hemalurgy before TLR took control.
    -Alendi's many piercings.

3 - It is plausible that a previous HoA created Feruchemy.
    -The Worldbringers wanted to keep memories and prophecies of the HoA, therefore they would have wanted a way to keep things in tact, therefore they could have created Feruchemy to preserve things.

4 - The mists seem to react most dramatically to Hemalurgy.
    -The first time and the most often mists react are described when talking of Hemalurgists.
    -Vin, using Hemalurgy presumably, burns the mists.

5 - Other
    -EUOL said that the magics are connected through the mists.
    -Mists react most to Hemalurgy, so it would make sense for it to be the oldest.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #448 on: August 02, 2008, 07:16:50 PM »
I believe that Hemalurgy was the first magic system to exist in the land for the following reasons.

1 - What we get from the books makes it seem that there was no such thing as Allomancy until TLR took control.
    -It says in many places that Allomancy was given to the nobility by TLR after his rise to power.
Either that or Allomancy "arose with the mists" as Kelsier's legends support. (And we saw what happened with his other legends.) If this is the case, the mists came about either when The Lord Ruler Ascended, meaning he did not actually create Allomancy, just that it was there and he used it, or that Allomancy has been around since the Deepness was created.

2 - We saw that there were hints of Hemalurgy before TLR took control.
    -Alendi's many piercings.
There was also full-blown Feruchemy before The Lord Ruler Ascended. It was quite well known to it's people, as well.

3 - It is plausible that a previous HoA created Feruchemy.
    -The Worldbringers wanted to keep memories and prophecies of the HoA, therefore they would have wanted a way to keep things in tact, therefore they could have created Feruchemy to preserve things.
It's also possible that a previous Hero of Ages could have made Hemalurgy after Feruchemy. The Worldbringers could have come about as a combination between them having Feruchemy and the Well of Ascension being right in the middle of their homeland.

4 - The mists seem to react most dramatically to Hemalurgy.
    -The first time and the most often mists react are described when talking of Hemalurgists.
    -Vin, using Hemalurgy presumably, burns the mists.
Actually, the first time we see mist reacting to someone is when Kelsier first burns steel before he goes to rob house Venture, and if that one's too vague for you, he burns tin shortly after that and leaves no room for doubt. (pg. 91-92 The Final Empire.pdf)
If Vin uses Hemalurgy to burn the mists, why then does she have her earring out? We see by removing the metals on a Steel Inquisitor they lose their ability to use them when the linchpin spike is removed and they lose the Hemalurgic ability to stay alive.

5 - Other
    -EUOL said that the magics are connected through the mists.
    -Mists react most to Hemalurgy, so it would make sense for it to be the oldest.[/color]
Mists react about equally to Allomancy and Hemalurgy, from what I can  tell, but the strength of the Allomancy and/or Hemalurgy determines how much the mist is attracted/repelled. Being connected to the mists has little sway on which system came first, because they're all connected.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #449 on: August 02, 2008, 07:38:04 PM »
1 - He says they arose with the mists, but the mists were around before TLR took control, assuming they were the Deepness.

2 - I didn't say Feruchemy wasn't around, I'm just saying that there were signs of Hemalurgy.

3 - I don't believe that the Worldbringers would have wanted to create Hemalurgy.  It seems like too malicious for something they would have wanted to create.

4 - OK I just looked over that, yes the first time we see the mists react was Kell, but we hear MORE about it when they talk about the Inquisitors or Vin when she fights TLR.  Most of us speculate that her earring coming out actually gives her access to Hemalurgy, why? I dunno, but that seems very plausible.

5 - But my previous argument of them being talked more of reacting to the mists and Vin being able to burn them through allegedly using Hemalurgy makes me think that it is more deeply connected to the mists, making it seem more of the older of the three.
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