Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 67494 times)

Comatose

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #180 on: June 01, 2008, 07:30:56 PM »
Do we know that kwaan told RAshek what was going on.  We know RAshek did as Kwaan asked, but we alsdo know he hated alendi and all of khlennium because ALendi was chosen as ther hero.  I don' think kwann would need to justify himself to Rasshek, Rashek would be eager to hinder alendi in any way possible. 
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #181 on: June 01, 2008, 08:50:06 PM »
Kwaan's original order was "get him lost and if you can't kill him - he must not reach the Well of Ascension".

We do not know if Kwaan did add something like "be the hero yourself, nephew and go get the power yourself" but he must have given some type of explanation to justify his asking. I mean to a killer, you don't have to justify yourself, but Rashek was his nephew, and no killer as far as we can read. But being family, they must have had some trust between the two. Obviously, Rashek thought he knew the prophecy. Was he wrong ? We do not know yet. But I guess, if my niece comes here and talks about a subject I know very well, I would not call it "justify" but I would gladly share my knowledge with her. So Rashek must have known a few things. I doubt though that he had the mission to take heroship on his shoulder.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #182 on: June 02, 2008, 04:07:22 PM »
There are plenty of questions about that, and that's why I think Rashek will be MB3's "epigraph person." First one was Alendi, second one Kwaan, so why can't the third be Rashek? It would certainly explain things...
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #183 on: June 02, 2008, 07:20:49 PM »
That makes sense, and I would really like to get some things from Rashek's viewpoint. If you guys have any hemalurgy references, add them to the hemalurgy reference thread. I've not been working on this for a while, but I'm starting back up again. I don't think I can speculate much more without knowing where things come from.

I think that it is most likely that Rashek knew he would kill Alendi, but didn't plan on "taking the heroship" upon himself until he got to the well.

All right, due to chaos' request that the discussion from "the mists" be moved over here, my reply is here. Reaves, I believe that at the same time Vin is noticing how Zane can hover with Steelpushes, she remarks that doing that takes long hours of practice to learn enough control. Not that no one else could do it. As for Vin drawing on the mists, quote from Mistborn 1 Annotations, Chapter 38 part 3.

Quote
The same is true for Allomancy. The vast majority of Allomancers aren't powerful enough to look beyond the basics. For them, simple rules like "You can't Push on metals inside of someone's body" apply. It's much easier to tell someone that, as opposed to "People's bodies interfere with Allomancy, making it much harder to affect metals inside of them--so hard, in fact, that only some people you'll never meet can Push on metals inside of people's bodies."

It is a matter of degree of power. Vin, for reasons I'll explain eventually, has access to far more Allomantic power than regular people. The Lord Ruler is the same way, though for different reasons. And so, he can affect metals that are blocked by blood. Vin has to draw upon another, external source of power in order to produce the same effect, but it is possible for her.


Also, MB1 annotations Chapter Nine

Quote
The mists and Allomancy feeling right to Vin have something to do with the ending, where she draws upon the mists for an extra burst of power. I'm afraid I can't say more until we get to future books.

Between those two quotes, Brandon makes it seem like Vin drawing on the mist has more to do with her being particularly powerful in allomancy than anything else. The other thing that goes against your theory is that at the end of book one, when Vin is fighting the lord ruler, he pushes her earring away before she draws on the mists. Since this is supposedly her source of hemalurgical power, I think that it makes sense for the mists to be repelled by hemalurgy, and Vin somehow used a form of allomancy to "burn" the mists.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 08:00:37 PM by Andrew the Great »
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Reaves

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #184 on: June 02, 2008, 10:03:22 PM »
All right, due to chaos' request that the discussion from "the mists" be moved over here, my reply is here. Reaves, I believe that at the same time Vin is noticing how Zane can hover with Steelpushes, she remarks that doing that takes long hours of practice to learn enough control. Not that no one else could do it. As for Vin drawing on the mists, quote from Mistborn 1 Annotations, Chapter 38 part 3.

Quote
The same is true for Allomancy. The vast majority of Allomancers aren't powerful enough to look beyond the basics. For them, simple rules like "You can't Push on metals inside of someone's body" apply. It's much easier to tell someone that, as opposed to "People's bodies interfere with Allomancy, making it much harder to affect metals inside of them--so hard, in fact, that only some people you'll never meet can Push on metals inside of people's bodies."

It is a matter of degree of power. Vin, for reasons I'll explain eventually, has access to far more Allomantic power than regular people. The Lord Ruler is the same way, though for different reasons. And so, he can affect metals that are blocked by blood. Vin has to draw upon another, external source of power in order to produce the same effect, but it is possible for her.


Also, MB1 annotations Chapter Nine

Quote
The mists and Allomancy feeling right to Vin have something to do with the ending, where she draws upon the mists for an extra burst of power. I'm afraid I can't say more until we get to future books.

Between those two quotes, Brandon makes it seem like Vin drawing on the mist has more to do with her being particularly powerful in allomancy than anything else. The other thing that goes against your theory is that at the end of book one, when Vin is fighting the lord ruler, he pushes her earring away before she draws on the mists. Since this is supposedly her source of hemalurgical power, I think that it makes sense for the mists to be repelled by hemalurgy, and Vin somehow used a form of allomancy to "burn" the mists.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. You believe that drawing on the mists is actually an Allomantic power? But hemalurgy allows her to do that? And you also say drawing on the mist has to do with her being particularly powerful in Allomancy? Can you try to explain? Because I'm pretty sure that Sanderson said the three magic systems are unique; intertwined, but unique.

As far as Zane goes, he has a spike in his back and likes to cut himself. We all agree that spikes/piercings give hemalurgy, yes? He also appears to 'push away' mist.

Also, for those of you who havent been following the "Mists" thread, my theory is that the mists are not actually being repelled from hemalurgists, but burned. The effect would visually look nearly the same, i think.
Quote
from MB1 synopsis
While she was fighting him, she drew upon the mists somehow, burning them in place of metals.
Emphasis added, of course.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 10:13:43 PM by Reaves »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #185 on: June 02, 2008, 10:20:38 PM »
Andrew is saying that you can only use hemalurgically endowed powers if you have a spike, and that the time Vin drew on the mists, her earring had been pulled out just before. So whatever Vin did when she drew on the mists must not have anything to do with hemalurgically endowed powers. When she's tried to repeat the feat later, she hasn't been able to--but she's been wearing her earring.
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Reaves

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #186 on: June 02, 2008, 10:47:27 PM »
Hum. Actually Andrew you are right.
Quote
That day, they had fueled her Allomancy, giving her a strength they shouldn't have had.
Also, my previous quote about using the mist instead of metals supports this idea.
This would explain several things actually; why mistborn are called mistborn, and why the Allomancers of old were stronger than modern-day. It would not explain why mist follows them....but the fact that mist is around them allows them to burn it more often.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #187 on: June 02, 2008, 11:14:50 PM »
I thought what Andrew meant was that it couldn't be Hemalurgy--at least, that's what I got from his post.

As for Reaves's idea that burning the mists is Hemalurgy, and it would appear the same as repelling the mists, I don't exactly believe that. First of all, from a physics perspective, lets say you were an Allomancer, and the mists surrounded you. However, the mists aren't inside you, immediately. So, if you were to burn them, they would have to get inside you, some way. That would mean the mists would be pulled to you, not repelled. (In fact, just this line of thinking gets me to my theory that the mists are the reason why Allomancy works, as stated in the beginning of The Mists topic).

Secondly, drawing upon the mists cannot be Hemalurgy for the simple reason that there were no spikes involved. You see, Hemalurgy is used through metal piercing the body, whether it being a giant spike in Zane or the Inquisitors' face, or a simple bronze earring. I've called this metal sort of like a "lightning rod". In any case, whenever there is a case of the mists repelling, someone has a spike inside of them.

Because Vin was only able to burn the mists after she removed her earring, the only metal piercing her body, that leads me to believe that the earring actually hampered the effort to draw on the mists.

Plus, the very nature of the word "draw" is to move it closer to you. The ending of MB1 gives no reason to suspect otherwise.

I may add that we never see Vin draw on the mists in MB2 because she's always wearing the earring. Of course, this gives her Hemalurgical powers, but it does nothing to increase Allomantic ability. I think this is rather logical (in both an evidentiary standpoint and reasoning), because if Allomancy attracts the mists and Hemalurgy repels the mists {Complete tangent that I just realized: I used 'attracts' and 'repels' because that's what Brandon uses. But, those terms are magnetic-related in nature. This could go in the 'Allomancy being related to Magnetism' topic. Just an interesting observation.}, it could be possible that one hampers the other's effort, like a cancelling effect.

Of course, Zane's observation that the mists were both being attracted and repelled doesn't help that model at all, but you get what I'm saying.
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Reaves

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #188 on: June 02, 2008, 11:55:18 PM »
yeah. He's convinced me. it couldn't be hemalurgy. Brandon himself says that 'they [the mists] had fueled her Allomancy"

Of course, Vin could be wrong, but i think she would know.

However, i do not believe that what we are seeing is mists being repelled. I think they are being burned. What is the basic, overriding principle of Allomancy? You burn metals to accomplish something, whether that is increasing your senses, strength, etc. With mists it is the same basic principle; they are being burned to accomplish something. They are not being repelled; they are melting away.

It could simply be that this is a technique that has been lost over the centuries to Mistborn; we know the Mistborn of old were more powerful. They certainly forgot about other things, such as the last six metals.

I think the earring has something to do with her being able to break through bronzeclouds. After all, the only time she has been able to use the mists was to fight TLR, but she can break bronzeclouds all the time.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 12:00:43 AM by Reaves »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #189 on: June 03, 2008, 12:28:37 AM »
Aha! You've stumbled upon one of the key facts about Hemalurgy. There is evidence to support the fact that breaking copperclouds (not bronzeclouds, by the way, you got those mixed up). I won't say them in this post, but I promise you its all in this topic. Both me and Andrew separately created very similar theories on how Hemalurgy operates, and definitely includes that the bronze earring allows Vin to pierce copperclouds. I think page 9, but I'm not sure on that.

Anyways. As I said in my last post, Vin's wearing her bronze earring practically all through MB2. Because of this, she can pierce copperclouds (all the time through MB2).
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #190 on: June 03, 2008, 01:55:14 AM »
I like your thoughts Reaves, especially about the mists being burned, but I think that maybe that's how the mistborn of old were so powerful, they drew upon the mists, but the modern mistborn's power is too diluted to do this any more, except for Vni, she is a special case.

One Question:  How long have the inquisitors been established for.  Di the lord ruler start creatin them at the beginning of his reign, or did Mistbonr serve him just fine, until they started becoming corrupt, and he need more loyal servants, who are more powerful than the diluted mistborn.

I'm not usre if thsi hemalurgy has been thought up yet, I remeber it from somewhere, but anyway, what if hemalurgy is jsut the passing on of abilities, and each metal contains a different ability.  For example: Bronze passes on the ability of a seeker to pierce copper clouds, perhaps a steel spike allows a normal person to become mistborn, and iron lets them see lines extra clearly, and maybe some other metals transfer other attributes like strength or healing, sort of like hemalrugy or something like that.  And this is the key point: allomatic abilites and other talents are passed by genetics or by BLOOD.  That's what the sacrifice is for, it passes one person's genetic talents on to another person.  The only probem with this theory is where does the lord ruler get all thes mistings tro sacrifice, that's the problem I have with it too, so here's the anser: Kar says he feels different kinds of pain with different emotions right?  Well that got me thinking, what if something similiar happens with hemaluryg.  What if certain personality traits or genetic traits in the people who are sacrificed affect the power that is given: like stubborn people when sacrificed over a pewter spike give strength, or nosy people give a bronze spike the power to pierce copper clouds.  It could also be gentic, like color of hair, or eyes.  The one problem I still have is that Vin's sisters was sacrificed for Vin's earring, and she was just a a baby, so she wouldn't have developed many personality traits yet, maybe it's genetic traits then.  Or maybe it's a certain emotion at the time of the sacrifice, and that's why inquisitors  are hard to make, you have to make each sacrifice feel a particular emotion at the moment of their death, even with soothers anbd rioters, how difficult would it be to make someone feel extremely hapy or excited right before they are killed?  And perhaps the more pure the emotion, the more powerful the power transfered into the spike.  There are still many loos thread, and it's very confusing, but I thought I'd post it anyway, so I could get your guys's thoughts on it, and that maybe it might get someone moving on a new train of thought.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #191 on: June 03, 2008, 02:56:25 AM »
Hmm...only one thing with my theory. It means that Inquisitors must be mistborn, and there are some very good theories which say they aren't. Any evidence for or against?
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #192 on: June 03, 2008, 03:35:01 AM »
This thread should clear up a lot of your question.  I'll try to summarize some of it so you don't have to read as much.

 I was originally against inquisitors using allomancy, but have since changed my position. This quote was the reason for me. MB2 annotations, Chapter 12:

Quote
By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody--at least, nobody the heroes know--is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The basic argument here is that Brandon says that anyone who could burn steel or iron could learn to see in "matrix vision" (darxbane's term for how Inquisitors see), which would mean it is related to allomancy and not hemalurgy. Brandon also mentions that the inquisitors have a subtle touch with steel and iron, which implies that they do indeed burn steel and iron.

Another important argument made was atium, which goes against the passive abilities theory that's floating around somewhere. Inquisitors can use atium, but don't use it all the time, suggesting that their supply is rather limited. Otherwise they'd just burn it all the time. Anyway, no one could think of a way for anything else to produce a similar effect to atium.

Lastly, there's Kelsier. He says several times that Inquisitors have all the powers of full mistborn, and implies that they do use allomancy. On the other hand, he never does straight out say that they use allomancy, and he could be misinformed. The basis for my original argument against inquisitors burning metals was this quote from the MB1 annotations, chapter 38 part 2:

Quote
Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . . .

I based my argument off the idea that the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from hemalurgy, and for some reason that implied to me that the inquisitor's power did come only from hemalurgy. I can't think of any of my other arguments, but there are probably others in that thread I linked you too. As I said, personally, I feel that inquisitors do have the powers of mistborn and do burn metals, so yes, they are mistborn. They just don't have to be to start. Somehow they gain the ability in the process of becoming an inquisitor.

Coma, I like what you have to say, but it's basically just a reiteration of a lot of previously mentioned theories. The problem is that we don't have enough evidence to totally disprove them, but I still think that it's not likely that it's a passive ability or that the transfer of power comes through the blood directly. The other problem that has not been mentioned with the misting per spike theory is that most mistings are not very strong, and their allomantic power is dilute enough that they can only burn one metal. Inquisitors, however, seem to have very strong allomantic powers, so I have trouble believing that weak allomancers could be the source of strong allomantic power for inquisitors. Once again, the quote about inquisitors being difficult to replace is easily explained by the fact that you have to get 11 spikes into the body at exactly the right spots, and without killing the person in the process. Doesn't sound particularly easy to me.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 04:59:22 AM by Andrew the Great »
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #193 on: June 03, 2008, 03:10:26 PM »
You guys have all been quite busy.  It's good to see some theories reiterated, although I have been staying away from posting because of it.  I have new evidence to possibly support my theory that Inquisitors do not burn metals like allomancers.  When Kelsier gives Vin her second Atium bead, he tells her not to swallow it until she needs it, because it gets ruined by the digestive juices in the stomach rather quickly.  However, when she swallows and activates her Atium against the Inquisitors, they simply turn it on without swallowing anything.  Zane does the same thing; he is never seen swallowing Atium, and he doesn't take any with him when he checks out his stash at the end of book 2, yet he uses it against Vin, and uses it for a long time.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #194 on: June 04, 2008, 09:43:32 PM »
I don't have any earth shattering insights, having only just read the Mistborn books over this last week but i did want to point out a thought i had after reading through this thread.

When talking about the Inquisitor's spikes it was mentioned that Sazed found spikes of different metals, and that the Inquisitors probably had spikes of all the Allomantic metals. It was a huge post with a lot of detailed information (i think it's on page 9). After reading it the only hole i saw is there can't be an atium spike. Marsh was helping the crew at the end of MB1 (as opposed to the end of MB2 when he is against them) and it would only take a single spike made of atium in one of the several Inquisitors that die at the end of the book to avert the money crisis in book 2. The very start of MB2 specifically mentions that Vin holds the last their atium, and that all they had was what Kell left her and the parts of TLR's bracers that were atium; then it mentions that Elend sold those bracers.

That's all the insight i have. you guys are certainly providing some interesting ideas that are well thought out, and it will be fun to see how close (or far) you all are when the last book comes out.