Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 100381 times)

Vintage

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2008, 03:34:12 PM »
Except that is evident for everyone that the Mist Spirit is against the Well Spirit. If the Well's power was from Preservation and that is the power Rashek touched, than it follows that the Mist Spirit is from Ruin and therefore cannot be compassionnate or benevolent. Of course, if the Well's power tends after Ruin, than it would make the Mist Spirit of Preservation and I would understand it would want to preserve Elend's life. Do you see the clear contradiction ? The only thing I wish to understand is its motivation. I don't mind whatever it is, just want to know.

Andrew the Great

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2008, 12:20:40 AM »
Except that is evident for everyone that the Mist Spirit is against the Well Spirit.

I don't know about this...particularly since the Well spirit could be of Ruin or Preservation or neither. I would say that it is against ruin, not necessarily the well spirit. I'm inclined to believe this as it fixes your contradiction problem as well.
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Qarlin

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2008, 01:10:40 AM »
If the power of Preservation was what was keeping Ruin, or the Well Spirit trapped in the well, then releasing the power could be what let it go, but using the power for Preservation would have kept it there, like what the Lord Ruler did.

Wild Idea - Is the creature in the well Ruin? What if it's neither Ruin nor Preservation, but creature of destruction trapped there by Preservation, that Ruin simply wanted to release? So it's a game between the two, since Ruin wants change, but Preservation wants to resist change, but neither of them is trapped.

Vintage

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2008, 03:39:17 AM »
I do not understand one thing. Why do you see Preservation as static and not wanting change ? Isn't preservation also for life ? What does it want to preserve ? Why do you think it want to preserve things in a static way ? Don't we talk about life preservation ? If so, life is also movement but not ruin.

Ruin is suppose to be opposite to Preservation. If that is so, you are saying that ruin is change... I really don't see change as a mean of ruin, though, or why would ruin be so dramatic ? To me ruin equals destruction, pretty much what Vin felt at the Well's spirit. And preservation means to preserve life by all means whatever the cost.

A picture of this would be the mistwraight that eat dead stuff just to make it "similarly" live in them again, Kandra eat dead corpse and give them a second life, the Mist Spirit intends and makes Elend stronger in making him a Mistborn, the snapping is also a mean of preservation since it does give a second life to those who snapped, etc.

On the opposite, lives have to be taken to create an inquisitor, they do not continue in any other way. We do see quite clearly and in plain sight that inquisitors are there to destroy (Vin's mom who killed her sister, Zane who was told to kill everybody - but Vin, Marsh that had to kill Sazed, etc...) and not to preserve anything except the power of the evil that was hiding in the Well.

We know that the Lord Ruler touched only one power, Ruin OR Preservation. Most of you guys believe he touched Preservation because of its disgust of change, but what is static is bound to deteriorate and at the end, die. If you do not go forward, you go backward. If you do not progress, you go reverse. Life is not static and somehow, I do not see it as Ruin either. Life is movement. People grow older but bare their own seed before they die - that is life preservation, plants grow bigger and they bare their own seed before they die. Each go into multiple phase before they die. You cannot say that is static, and you cannot say that is destruction either.

If OreSeur/TenSoon thinks that TLR created the Kandra, he also stipulates that his memory doesn't go that far. No Kandra alive has seen the beginning of its race and like the Terris people, they have to believe what TLR wants them to believe. You have to remember that anything that was told by TLR cannot be trusted. It is not certain at all that he did create Kandras. It is just like him wanting to believe he is God and knows both powers, like Brandon says in his annotations. He did lie to people, and that could also be another one of those.

Let's not jump to conclusion to fast.

Qarlin, it is certainly a possiblity that the entity or spirit living and trapped in the Well could have been there by the will of Preservation. But this power, we have to remember as per Alendi's logbook and Vin's impression, is evil and wants destruction not because it's mean, but simply because it is all it aspires. In this case, the power would belong to Ruin. Remember, the power is sentient and devious.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2008, 05:12:15 AM »
We don't so much see preservation as being static and unchanging as preventing change being the means it uses to preserve things. What does preservation want to preserve? Everything. However, this is impossible, so it preserves as much of the good things as it can. Ruin, on the other hand, wants chaos, which it does through changing the order of things. It confused me for a very long time before I started thinking of it like this.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #170 on: May 21, 2008, 12:22:57 AM »
Yes, I like the idea of the destructive power being held in the well, except for the fact that: it's sentient. anmd the way it changes things, and the fact that it is mentioned in the third book's summary that it is indeed, Ruin who has bee nreleased by Vin.
I also think there is something else in the well.
I don't think preservation was in the well at all, but the lord ruler used the power of creation, used to imprison ruin, to meet ends that matched that of preservation, I don't think the lord ruler was wokring with preservation, I just think that his motives sort of matched those of preservation
AS for benevolent, I don't know, the spirit stabbed people, and it caused Vin to fall off that building.

This should really all be on the ruin preservation thread shouldn't it, wasn't this originally about hemalurgy.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #171 on: May 21, 2008, 12:29:02 AM »
Wow... You just buzzkilled your own ADD trip, man. Isn't that for the mods and more serious old-timers (Ookla anyone?)?

I haven't seen any evidence to point to anything else being in the well, though... But I agree on the point that Ruin was unleashed, and that Preservation and TLR have been in-cahoots for a while (maybe Preservation started mind-controlling him!).
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Qarlin

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #172 on: May 21, 2008, 05:42:28 AM »
So back on Hemalurgy then, is it safe to say that Hemalurgy is in opposition to the power that held Ruin in the well? Since she had to remove her earring when she entered. That could also be why the Inq. couldn't free it. Prolly weren't strong enough to open that door either.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #173 on: May 21, 2008, 01:55:41 PM »
That or it is the power that held ruin in the well. I like this, the whole opposites attract, likes repel thing being true. I can also see where you're coming from though, and think it seems more likely.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #174 on: May 21, 2008, 09:03:58 PM »
Marsh was guarding the entrance to the secret passage way to stop (by killing him) Sazed who wanted, in turn, to stop Vin to go to the Well. I believe it is safe to say that Inquisitors (and whatever force they're with) wanted the power to be freed.

The only thing is, though, that I cannot see Inquisitors be of Preservation. Since we do know that TLR touched only one of the two, we have to discard the other one. If TLR touched Preservation and also made the Inquisitors through his hemalurgical powers, than the evil and terrible power in the well would have to be Preservation and not Ruin as we think. Do you see my confusion ? And another question is, why did TLR not trust the Inquisitors ? It took them, after all, 1000 years to get the power that the Obligators had and that only through trickery.

On the contrary, if TLR touched Ruin and made the Inquisitors, we can deduct that the power in the Well was Ruin.  You would not want to release your ennemy... unless of course, it became your ennemy during those 1000 years.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #175 on: May 22, 2008, 04:43:55 AM »
Though, with the "likes repel" idea, it could be just Ruin in the Well, which would explain why releasing it without using it would set it free, but using it would leave it captive - draining it so it can't escape.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #176 on: May 22, 2008, 04:58:14 AM »
I tend to agree with that idea, Qarlin.
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Vintage

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #177 on: May 22, 2008, 06:40:22 PM »
Are you saying that TLR might have used Ruin (by taking the power to himself) in order to make sure it could not escape ?...

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #178 on: May 22, 2008, 07:43:57 PM »
More that the Lord Ruler took the power at the well, thinking of it as power, while it actually WAS Ruin (Or at least Ruin's source of power, which may be himself...).  The Lord Ruler controlled what the power did, so Ruin couldn't use it and has now become stronger when the power is refilling.  I would imagine that being free he will be even more powerful. That about sums it all up.
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Qarlin

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #179 on: May 23, 2008, 04:42:06 AM »
That's a theory on it, yeah.