The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread

[Phaz]

If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.

I don't quite get your point.  What would be so hard about him getting a new spike?  It seems like there were plenty of extra at the Convetical.

Also, from the Vin example, it shows that it doesn't necessarily need to be a 'spike,'  just a piece of metal.  I'm sure the kind of metal matters however.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  If it requires a blood sacrifice to make the metal part of hemalurgy, and her sister was the sacrifice, then the conditions seem to be met.  This would explain why Ruin can talk to her (as Reen) and why she can pierce copper clouds.

For a really wacky idea, what if Vin's sister was an Allomancer (seeker maybe, if we go with the power-stealing idea)?  We know her blood line is really strong, so maybe there is a higher chance with her family.  Is there any proof that Reen was as well?  That could explain how the inquisitors finally caught up with him.  Maybe when they 'killed' Reen they used him to make a new inquisitor (like Marsh).

[Phaz]

Thanks for pointing out those things Darxbane, I think it really contributes to the "Inquisitors use Allomancy" idea.

For the comment about us not really seeing much of inquisitors, I would agree, but also disagree.  True, there aren't that many words written where we see them directly, but we do get a lot of indirect knowledge.

In addition, almost every time we do get a good view of them, they are fighting.  This goes back to the "what other powers could they have?" theory.  When we see them, they are in battle.  They have a very very important goal in their minds (capturing Vin, or in MB2, stopping Vin, or fighting for their lives).  IMO, if they had other powers, they would use them in this scenario. 

Wouldn't that be the one time that we would seem them use other powers (if they had any)?  When they were fighting?  That makes the most sense to me.  Why would they hold back?  They have goals they want to accomplish, they are fighting for their lives, they wouldn't hold back.  They would use every advantage at their disposal.  Thus, I think this also enforces the idea that they use allomancy, and hemalurgy is the process by which they acquire it.

Finally, the other things we have seen about hemalurgy are mostly related to the process of creating inquisitors.

If you think back, there are several references to how inquisitors are made.  IMO, that is Brandon's way of leading us to accept the idea that hemalurgy is the process that does that.  It's not what they use for thier powers.  It's how they get their powers.  He wouldn't spend the time referencing the various glimpses into how they are made unless it was an important part.

Also, I think we have to look back to the quote from the Lord Ruler about making them.  I don't have the exact words, but I believe it was something along the lines of "Those (inquisitors) are very difficult to replace."  He mentions that they are very hard to make.  If hemalurgy was simply putting spikes in someone, then inquisitors wouldn't be difficult to replace.  Even if some of the spikes were made of pure atium, it still doesn't seem like that would be something that TLR would find "difficult."

However, finding skaa mistings of a particular type, and a keeper that can be sacrificed all to make one inquisitor... THAT seems like something that the Lord Ruler would consider "difficult."

[Andrew the Great]

For a really wacky idea, what if Vin's sister was an Allomancer (seeker maybe, if we go with the power-stealing idea)?  We know her blood line is really strong, so maybe there is a higher chance with her family.  Is there any proof that Reen was as well?  That could explain how the inquisitors finally caught up with him.  Maybe when they 'killed' Reen they used him to make a new inquisitor (like Marsh).

This is what I was originally trying to get at. For the power stealing to work, the sacrifice would have to have allomantic abilities (and 1 would have feruchemy). Thus, vin's sister would have to be a seeker, which is not likely (unless it's through the same mom...I don't know). Reen likely would not be an allomancer as he was only her half-brother.

Darxbane, for the reasons you mentioned, I was thinking that any additional powers an inquisitor had would have to be useless in battle. Like, you don't sooth someones emotions in battle. So abilities of this general nature would be what we were looking for. Not necessarily useful in battle, but elsewhere maybe.

Chaos, from now on I will be attempting to use the word Hemalurgify in all my posts on this thread. That's got to be the coolest word ever.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is about the difficult to replace quote. If your going to stick eleven spikes in someone placed just correctly to give them special abilities and not kill them in the process (even though all logic says they should be dead), I would classify that as being difficult. No need to complicate this any more than that, according to Phaz's razor thingy (which I'm to lazy to find and actually use...).

The Inquisitor allomancer theory has its positive and negative points, as does mine, but I'll be honest, I just don't like it. I don't know why, it just seems too easy to me. Which is kind of funny considering that in the previous paragraph I mentioned keeping things simple.

I've always envisioned hemalurgy as a third full system with unique abilities. If it is just a process to gain allomancy, I'll feel somewhat cheated.

Thanks for posting though, I really like some of the ideas going around.

[Chaos]

If this whole "magic-stealing" thing worked, it would be through a blood sacrifice to, um, "Hemalurgify" the metal. Inquisitors are already pretty much decked out in plenty of metal, so I highly doubt Marsh would be able to steal Feruchemy from the Keepers he has slain. If there was stealing, and if that is how it works, then Marsh would need to get a NEW spike in order for any Feruchemist-sacrifice to work.

Likewise, for Vin to steal a power, there would need to be a blood sacrifice Hemalurgifying a piece of metal--namely her bronze earring, and I think her earring's sacrifice was her sister, not anything else.

So, I think that power-stealing is not quite a plausible theory. Possibly true, but it seems implausible.

I don't quite get your point.  What would be so hard about him getting a new spike?  It seems like there were plenty of extra at the Convetical.

Also, from the Vin example, it shows that it doesn't necessarily need to be a 'spike,'  just a piece of metal.  I'm sure the kind of metal matters however.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  If it requires a blood sacrifice to make the metal part of hemalurgy, and her sister was the sacrifice, then the conditions seem to be met.  This would explain why Ruin can talk to her (as Reen) and why she can pierce copper clouds.

The difficulty, as Andrew touched on, is putting a gigantic spike severing your body, potential organs, and other rather important bodily muscles and make the person still live. I don't think with the eleven spikes you could really have any room to add a twelfth to "power-steal" some Feruchemy.

Chaos, from now on I will be attempting to use the word Hemalurgify in all my posts on this thread. That's got to be the coolest word ever.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is about the difficult to replace quote. If your going to stick eleven spikes in someone placed just correctly to give them special abilities and not kill them in the process (even though all logic says they should be dead), I would classify that as being difficult. No need to complicate this any more than that, according to Phaz's razor thingy (which I'm to lazy to find and actually use...).

The Inquisitor allomancer theory has its positive and negative points, as does mine, but I'll be honest, I just don't like it. I don't know why, it just seems too easy to me. Which is kind of funny considering that in the previous paragraph I mentioned keeping things simple.

I've always envisioned hemalurgy as a third full system with unique abilities. If it is just a process to gain allomancy, I'll feel somewhat cheated.

Thanks for posting though, I really like some of the ideas going around.

Hemalurgify is a cool word, right up there with Hemalurgical powers and the Hemalurgification process to create Inquisitors.

I also have envisioned Hemalurgy as a different magic system, which is somewhat why I am really hesitant to say that your Hemalurgy theory just gives Allomancy to inquisitors. It makes sense, but Hemalurgy should be something different, not just a method to gain Allomancy or stronger Allomancy. I've never really liked the fact that Hemalurgy just seems like a way to boost Allomancy.

I'm sorry if my thoughts aren't complete... I'm sick, and I just got braces on Monday, so I'm simultaneously congested and in a lot of pain. It sucks...

[darxbane]

Actually, soothing or rioting  your enemy in battle could be a great advantage.  However, I don't think that they soothe, riot, or even seek.  There are obligator mistings that can do that.  Also, on that vein, I have read several posts that suggest Inquisitors could pierce copper clouds.  I don't believe this is true.  After all, if they could, the hideout at Clubs's shop would have been found much earlier on in the story.  From what I remember, only TLR and Vin are able to pierce copper clouds.  Also, please stop the fantasy that Reen's voice is Ruin talking to her.  If that were true, Reen wouldn't have been encouraging her to leave Kelsier's group.  Ruin wanted her to become a Hero, someone who thought of others first, someone who would be willing to give the power away to save the world, according to Its false prophecies.  Reen's "voice" was saying the exact opposite.   Vin's sister had to be the sacrifice, although I am not sure if it was necessary for her to be a seeker.  Don't forget that Vin's mother heard voices, so she was a Hemalurgy recipient of some sort.  I wonder how many Skaa have some sort of piercing or spike like that? 

[Phaz]

Actually, soothing or rioting  your enemy in battle could be a great advantage.  However, I don't think that they soothe, riot, or even seek.  There are obligator mistings that can do that.  Also, on that vein, I have read several posts that suggest Inquisitors could pierce copper clouds.  I don't believe this is true.  After all, if they could, the hideout at Clubs's shop would have been found much earlier on in the story.  From what I remember, only TLR and Vin are able to pierce copper clouds.  Also, please stop the fantasy that Reen's voice is Ruin talking to her.  If that were true, Reen wouldn't have been encouraging her to leave Kelsier's group.  Ruin wanted her to become a Hero, someone who thought of others first, someone who would be willing to give the power away to save the world, according to Its false prophecies.  Reen's "voice" was saying the exact opposite.   Vin's sister had to be the sacrifice, although I am not sure if it was necessary for her to be a seeker.  Don't forget that Vin's mother heard voices, so she was a Hemalurgy recipient of some sort.  I wonder how many Skaa have some sort of piercing or spike like that? 

The voice thing makes sense.  If Vin's mom was under the influence of Ruin, and it was Ruin that led her to kill Vin's sister and put the earing in Vin's ear, then it would make sense that Reens voice is also Ruin.  Maybe we just don't know Ruin's true motive.  Think of Breeze and how he's always saying you have to use a 'subtle touch.'  Maybe by talking to her as Reen and just bugging her he is setting himself up to make some more meaningful suggestions later on that she thinks are coming from inside her head, not outside it.

Vin's mom probably was also under the influence of Ruin.  However, I don't think simply having a spike or some metal piercing you puts you under his influence.  It has to be a hemalurgic spike (presumably) made from a sacrifice.

Also, inquisitors can pierce copper clouds.  Marsh confirms this to Vin.  It is mentioned.

I think the reason that Club's shop wasn't found was simply because inquisitors never passed it.  Luthadel was a big place and I'm sure Inquisitors didn't just stroll around.

[Vintage]

I read you all and noticed that you are forgetting a little something. Brandon's annotation specify that TLR has touched only one of the two : Preservation OR Ruin. Now, if allomancy is from preservation, and that Hemalurgy is from Ruin (and we KNOW that TLR is hemalurgist from Brandon's annotation) than TLR did not create the mistborn and did not touch Preservation. I have no theory, but I would like you to take this into consideration. I am re-reading and taking notes to help us all.

[SarahG]

The only thing that we know they do, that isn't a product of allomancy, is healing very fast.

Phaz, I really like your desire to trim down and simplify.  Uncomplicated theories are the most likely to be true.  Thus, until I see a theory more persuasive than those thus far, I will continue to believe that Inquisitors are Allomancers, although they clearly also have other powers (probably from Hemalurgy).

I did, however, think of something else they can do that an Allomancer can't: track down an individual Allomancer.  Near the beginning of MB1, Kelsier tells Vin something about that one Inquisitor having her scent.  Now this could be simply amplified Seeker abilities, where an Inquisitor can sense differences in Allomantic pulses caused by the individual Allomancer.  Or it could be amplified Ironlines, where the Inquisitor can identify people by the patterns of their bones and organs, which they can see through the trace metals in people's bodies.  But it could be a whole different ability, which neither regular Allomancers nor regular Feruchemists share.

[darxbane]

That's a good point, Sarah.  Although they could also simply be tracking her by interrogating people that know her.  They started with Reen, then moved on to her old thieving crew.  It looked like they were chasing her the old fashioned way.  If they really knew her by allomantic pulses, they would have caught her during one of her training sessions.  The Inq that Kelsier distracted would have also recognized her right away, and wouldn't have let Kelsier distract him.  As for healing, Pewter does heal the body.  Inquisitors might be able to use an enormous amount of pewter power to heal very quickly.  The large spikes in their bodies could be directly proportional to the amount of power they can produce, along with the type of sacrifice done to "activate" the spike.

[Chaos]

I read you all and noticed that you are forgetting a little something. Brandon's annotation specify that TLR has touched only one of the two : Preservation OR Ruin. Now, if allomancy is from preservation, and that Hemalurgy is from Ruin (and we KNOW that TLR is hemalurgist from Brandon's annotation) than TLR did not create the mistborn and did not touch Preservation. I have no theory, but I would like you to take this into consideration. I am re-reading and taking notes to help us all.

Annotations are really the ultimate authority.

However, I do think the Lord Ruler touched Preservation. Primarily because it stops Ruin, and because he used the power to "stop the Deepness", or at least keep it at bay. I do not think that if the power that was touched was Ruin--as a sentient entity--would allow the Lord Ruler to use its power to halt the Deepness. It is a loose argument, sure, but an argument just the same.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that whatever he did to the Deepness/mists also, somehow, made it possible to burn metals with Allomancy. "Changing the mists", I call it. If we go with the previous argument, that means the Lord Ruler essentially used Preservation to "create" Allomancy (not exactly create, but allow Allomancy to occur, I guess), which links Allomancy with Preservation.

However, if Hemalurgy is indeed the way Ruin communicates with people (at least in the hearing-voices method), that means Hemalurgy is already linked with Ruin. Just because the Lord Ruler uses Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy does not mean the powers inherently contradict each other. All it takes to use Hemalurgy is a large metal in your body and a blood sacrifice to activate the metal. The Lord Ruler could have just done that, and not touch the force of Ruin at the Well.

Personally, I believe there is more evidence supporting Preservation at the Well than Ruin.

[Vintage]

Unless we do not talk about the 3 magic systems as being of Ruin or Preservation. Could not they be neutral and used by the 2 powers ? Because if the magics belong to either one or the other, it does make interaction a bit complicated. How could the Lord Ruler be of Ruin and Preservation if he touched only Ruin OR Preservation ? How could the Lord Ruler initiates, lets say, allomancers and create Inquisitors ?

[darxbane]

I am of this same thought.  Ruin and Preservation are able to touch the powers of metals, but they don't control them. 

[Chaos]

Correction: Allomancy is just more related to Preservation than Ruin. The forces don't own the magic systems, yeah.

[Andrew the Great]

Agreed. Thanks for pointing that out. I also think we need to keep it a little simpler than we have been (largely my fault, actually). We need to work out the basics before we can get something concrete. I may not post too often in the next little while, I'm getting into finals and my teachers seem to have decided that none of us have social lives...But after that I'll be back on frequently!

[AvalonDreamer]

I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet (and if it has, I'm bringing it back up! haha!), but what if hemalurgy is a totally passive version of the other two power systems? What I'm attempting to say is, what if each piercing grants you an effect like what a metalmind could allow you to store, or burning could allow you to amplify, but just as a constant ability, with some sort of constant penalty. We know that Inqis can always see metals as though they were burning steel/iron, and it's a fairly good assumption that they are always at least emulating the effects of pewter (as exhibited by their uber resilience and strength).

Short version: Hemalurgical piercings grant passive versions of allomantical powers.

Thoughts?