Author Topic: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread  (Read 105812 times)

VegasDev

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #555 on: October 03, 2008, 07:23:23 PM »
I found a reference that applies here:

Quote
It wasn't much.  But, then, Vin wasn't sure she wanted to think about her mother all that much.  The woman had, after all, tried to kill Vin.  In fact, she had killed Vin's full sister(emphasis added).  Only the actions of Reen, Vin's half brother(emphasis added), had saved her.
P. 42, WoA, paperback (Chapter 5)

This quote makes it clear that the sister was fully her sister, but Reen only her half-brother.  Now that I look at it, the phraseology is slightly awkward; the relationships must be important...

So with Vin referring to her as her baby sister (in another quote), it either means that Vin is older and most likely not a twin or she is a twin and Brandon was giving a timeframe for when Vin got her earring.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #556 on: October 04, 2008, 10:41:01 PM »
The Lord Prelan says he didn't know Vin's mother was a skaa at first, thus they probably had the opportunity to have several childrean together.

I think Allomancy is related to the balance between Ruin and Preservation, and hemalurgy is the disblance, the hemalurgists can be influenced (I say influenced not controlled, Marsh is still fighting, and Zane was in control), by either one.

Notice how the voice whispers to sazed?  God (Zane's voice), shouts and demands.  Alendi also heard quiet whispers telling him everything was going to be alright.  Maybe that's the clue, perhaps Preservation whispers because it's so far away.

Also, notice when Ruin takes control of Marsh, he hears no voices.
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Qarlin

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #557 on: October 04, 2008, 11:07:39 PM »
I think Allomancy is related to the balance between Ruin and Preservation, and hemalurgy is the disblance, the hemalurgists can be influenced (I say influenced not controlled, Marsh is still fighting, and Zane was in control), by either one.

When have we seen Preservation controlling anyone?

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #558 on: October 05, 2008, 12:25:38 AM »
"Control" isn't the right word, it's more of "speaking". Last page I mentioned that Sazed heard Preservation's voice.

I found a reference that applies here:

Quote
It wasn't much.  But, then, Vin wasn't sure she wanted to think about her mother all that much.  The woman had, after all, tried to kill Vin.  In fact, she had killed Vin's full sister(emphasis added).  Only the actions of Reen, Vin's half brother(emphasis added), had saved her.
P. 42, WoA, paperback (Chapter 5)

This quote makes it clear that the sister was fully her sister, but Reen only her half-brother.  Now that I look at it, the phraseology is slightly awkward; the relationships must be important...

So with Vin referring to her as her baby sister (in another quote), it either means that Vin is older and most likely not a twin or she is a twin and Brandon was giving a timeframe for when Vin got her earring.

More importantly, that means Vin's sister has the Lord Prelan's bloodline, so she could have been an Allomancer as well (perhaps unsnapped, though).
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #559 on: October 05, 2008, 06:12:51 PM »
sorry, I just noticed that in book 2 Marsh DOES mention hearing voices, however, when we actually see things from his viewpoint, Ruin just takes control, perhaps being trapped in the well weakened him enough that he had to persuade the inquisitors, but now that he is free, he can just control something.

And as for the whispers VS shouts thing, Reen always whispers to Vin.  Sazed and Elend both hear whispers, but Zane hears god shouting, and I am assuming that the voice in Marsh's head was also very persuasive and difficult to ignore.  Ruin=shouting Preservation=whispers perhaps.  (sorry this computer can't do question marks for some reason.)
What do you guys think.
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happyman

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #560 on: October 06, 2008, 04:55:05 PM »
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #561 on: October 06, 2008, 05:24:19 PM »
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?

It's been theorized, but I don't remember that Marsh explicitly confirmed it. Do you happen to have a quote, or at least a general area where it was?

And it looks like college is coming on pretty thick for me, so I probably won't have a chance to do my reread of MB1 and MB2. Oh well...
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happyman

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #562 on: October 06, 2008, 08:40:37 PM »
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?

It's been theorized, but I don't remember that Marsh explicitly confirmed it. Do you happen to have a quote, or at least a general area where it was?

And it looks like college is coming on pretty thick for me, so I probably won't have a chance to do my reread of MB1 and MB2. Oh well...

I found it on my recent read-through, but wasn't certain if it had been cited.  Ironically, we probably miss it because it is very early in the book.  In my paperback, it's on page 24, in Chapter 3.  It's just before she sees the mist spirit for the first time, two pages into Vin's POV.

Quote
With a sigh, she opened her eyes.  Her strange power was confusing, but it wasn't unique to her.  Marsh had confirmed that Steel Inquisitors could pierce copperclouds, and she was certain the Lord Ruler had been able to do so.

If you read the book and find her mentioning her ability to pierce copperclouds, you're too far.

Incidentally, this moves the "Hemalurgy enables it" argument well into the "likely" category.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #563 on: October 07, 2008, 02:54:15 AM »
Oi, I am still in the denial stage about the college things, my friends are doing scholarship stuff already (or some of them), I still have not decided what I am doing yet.  I suppose I will be forced to look into it soon enough.  I still try to find more time than I have lately to be on the boards, at least until the book comes out.
This is really frustrating, my apostrophes are not working!

I think it is fairly for certain that it is her earring that is doing the copper cloud piercing thing.
Another thought on the voices, I just finished my reread, and this time Elends and Sazeds (sorry) scenes with the whispering voices really jumped out at me.  Elends because this is information he could not have know and Brandon clearly points this out.  The only problem is, he carried no metal, and has no piercings, so why the voice.  Sazed may have had metal, but they were not hemalurgic, and Vin heard Reens voice BEFORE she placed her earring in her ear during book one.  perhaps only Ruin speaks through hemalurgy, or perhaps the voices are neither ruin nor Preservation.  What if they are the voices of the dead (question marks are not working either, next time I am using a different computer).  The amount Brandon has Sazed focus on how he does not know what happens to the dead at the end makes me wonder.  Is Twindyl speaking to Sazed, is the Spirit of Reen actually giving Vin advice (No Question marks).  Elends was tricky but I was wondering if it might be Kelsier.
"Look, I'm just trying to change the world, okay?  I don't have time for a grudge match with every poser in a parka!"
- Dr. Horrible

"There's always another secret..."
- Kelsier

happyman

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #564 on: October 07, 2008, 03:05:58 AM »
Oi, I am still in the denial stage about the college things, my friends are doing scholarship stuff already (or some of them), I still have not decided what I am doing yet.  I suppose I will be forced to look into it soon enough.  I still try to find more time than I have lately to be on the boards, at least until the book comes out.
This is really frustrating, my apostrophes are not working!

I think it is fairly for certain that it is her earring that is doing the copper cloud piercing thing.
Another thought on the voices, I just finished my reread, and this time Elends and Sazeds (sorry) scenes with the whispering voices really jumped out at me.  Elends because this is information he could not have know and Brandon clearly points this out.  The only problem is, he carried no metal, and has no piercings, so why the voice.  Sazed may have had metal, but they were not hemalurgic, and Vin heard Reens voice BEFORE she placed her earring in her ear during book one.  perhaps only Ruin speaks through hemalurgy, or perhaps the voices are neither ruin nor Preservation.  What if they are the voices of the dead (question marks are not working either, next time I am using a different computer).  The amount Brandon has Sazed focus on how he does not know what happens to the dead at the end makes me wonder.  Is Twindyl speaking to Sazed, is the Spirit of Reen actually giving Vin advice (No Question marks).  Elends was tricky but I was wondering if it might be Kelsier.

Since Brandon has stated that Reen's voice is partly Vin's subconscious regurgitating what he told her, I'm not certain how significant the timing of Reen's voice is.

With Sazed, it's possible the metal (his metalminds) piercing his body was enough.  We don't know it has to be a Hemalurgical piercing for Preservation to speak.  Perhaps Hemalurgy is just necessary for control, or just necessary for Ruin.

Elend is harder to identify, although I agree that that jumped out at me as well.  Hmmm.  Maybe metal is a red herring after all.
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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #565 on: October 07, 2008, 05:02:31 AM »
If they are the voices of the dead, then why doesn't Preservation speak? I think it's Preservation, though I agree it's difficult to tell using Reen's voice, since it's not always her subconscious... It would be something for someone to compile a list of everything Reen says and try to actually decide when it's a memory...

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #566 on: October 07, 2008, 05:51:51 AM »
This is a very long thread.  Has anybody mentioned that Steel Inquisitors can definitely pierce copperclouds; that Marsh confirmed it before he got dominated by Ruin?

It's been theorized, but I don't remember that Marsh explicitly confirmed it. Do you happen to have a quote, or at least a general area where it was?

And it looks like college is coming on pretty thick for me, so I probably won't have a chance to do my reread of MB1 and MB2. Oh well...

I found it on my recent read-through, but wasn't certain if it had been cited.  Ironically, we probably miss it because it is very early in the book.  In my paperback, it's on page 24, in Chapter 3.  It's just before she sees the mist spirit for the first time, two pages into Vin's POV.

Quote
With a sigh, she opened her eyes.  Her strange power was confusing, but it wasn't unique to her.  Marsh had confirmed that Steel Inquisitors could pierce copperclouds, and she was certain the Lord Ruler had been able to do so.

If you read the book and find her mentioning her ability to pierce copperclouds, you're too far.

Incidentally, this moves the "Hemalurgy enables it" argument well into the "likely" category.

It puts it into the "Irrefutably Quality for Hemalurgy", in my opinion.

Quote from: happyman
With Sazed, it's possible the metal (his metalminds) piercing his body was enough.  We don't know it has to be a Hemalurgical piercing for Preservation to speak.  Perhaps Hemalurgy is just necessary for control, or just necessary for Ruin.

Elend is harder to identify, although I agree that that jumped out at me as well.  Hmmm.  Maybe metal is a red herring after all.

I'm thinking it has something to do with a blood sacrifice. With a blood sacrifice, it is Ruin's voice, without one, it is Preservation. Though that's pure speculation.
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Qarlin

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #567 on: October 07, 2008, 06:15:56 AM »
Alright, long post. With the html copy of Final Empire so nicely offered from Tor, here is the list of everything Reen says in Vin's head, along with what chapter it occurred in. Of course, I don't have page numbers, because it's html, but there you go.

Chapter 1
And Vin liked solitude. When you're alone, no one can betray you. Reen's words. Her brother had taught her so many things, then had reinforced them by doing what he'd always promised he would—by betraying her himself. It's the only way you'll learn. Anyone will betray you, Vin. Anyone.

Chapter 2
You think some crewleader is going to want a liability like you on his team? he had said. I don't even want to have to work with you, and I'm your brother.

Chapter 3
In her mind, she thought she heard a voice whispering to her. Reen's voice. Fool! Ruthlessness—it's the most logical of emotions. You don't have any friends in the underworld. You'll never have any friends in the underworld!

Vin frowned. Then she eyed Kelsier, who smiled. He knew that he had her. He had shown off his power, had tempted her with it. The only reason to be subservient to those with power is so that you can learn to someday take what they have. Reen's words.

Chapter 4
If you let someone get close to you, it will only hurt more when they betray you, Reen seemed to whisper in her mind.

Never trust a man who tells you good news, Reen had always said. It's the oldest, but easiest, way to con someone.

Chapter 7
Vin almost smiled back. Reen's training came to her rescue. The man who wants you to trust him is the one you must fear the most. Her brother's voice almost seemed to whisper in her head. It had grown stronger since she'd met Kelsier, as if her instincts were on edge.

Chapter 8
Vin took a seat in one of the stiffly upholstered maroon chairs, tucking her feet up beneath her. She knew what the problem was. Kelsier had been showing her too much respect, making her feel too important. She was beginning to think that she deserved to be part of his secret confidences. Reen's laughter in the back of her mind discredited those thoughts, and she sat, annoyed at both herself and Kelsier, feeling ashamed, but not exactly certain why.

Chapter 9
You don't want them to think of you as a girl, Reen's voice warned. Yet, for once, she found herself wanting to ignore that voice.

Chapter 16
They're fools, Reen's voice whispered. This entire plan will end in disaster—and your death will be your own fault for not leaving when you could.

Chapter 18
Anyone will betray you, Reen whispered. Everyone will betray you.

Chapter 20
Is that a good enough reason to let them get you killed? Reen's voice asked.

Chapter 30
However, a voice from within—a voice she had nearly forgotten—began to speak. Of course he left you, Reen whispered. Of course he abandoned you. Everyone will betray you, Vin. What did I teach you?

I never came back for you, Reen whispered. He won't either. The voice felt so real—it was almost like she could hear him beside her.

Chapter 31
You should just be angry at yourself, Reen's voice whispered. You're the one who let them get close. Now they're all just going to leave you.

Chapter 34
Then he towed her away. Vin continued to struggle weakly, but she was growing numb. In the back of her mind, she heard Reen's voice.

See. I told you he would leave you. I warned you.

I promised you. . . .

Epilogue
A whispered voice came from the back of her mind, speaking in Reen's voice. Go back.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #568 on: October 07, 2008, 07:28:23 PM »
Many of those are written differently.  We should definitely remove the words where she remembers his words versus those where she actually hears the voice in her head.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

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Re: The Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread
« Reply #569 on: October 08, 2008, 07:53:09 AM »
Only four, really; Chapter 1, Chapter 2, and the 2nd ones in Chapters 3 and 4. The others all seem to be Reen speaking in her head and not just memories. At least, they could be.

The list I compiled is just everything he said in the book. Everything. I also included the bit where she heard him laughing in her mind because I thought it fit with everything else.