Ruin and Preservation

[Qarlin]

I think the fact that the lynch pin is so easy to remove, compared to the others.

And I believe the well and the mist spirit give off different pulses... On page 34 of WoA, Vin mentions having trouble deciding what metals (yes, plural) the spirit was burning.

On another note, anyone notice that the mists during Vin's fight with Zane were getting higher and higher? They were up to her chin by the time she killed him, and they were inside (page 444-452).

[Comatose]

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 492
And yet it was real. She could feel it, and she could see it--see it as it looked up, meeting her gaze with invisible eyes.
Hateful eyes.
It raised an insubstantial arm, and Vin saw something flash. She reacted immediately, whipping out a dagger, bursting into the tent and swinging. Her blow met something tangible in the mist spirit's hand. A metallic sound rang in the calm air, and Vin felt a powerful, numbing chill in her arm. The hairs across her entire body prickled.
Okay, first off, why did the mist spirit attack Elend? Just to try and get at Vin? Why does it seem to hate her? Perhaps this is because it knows Vin is going to go the Well of Ascension, and it is angry at her for leaving Luthadel. Or perhaps it doesn't like married people. Something is up there. And for reference, another similar event happens on page 121, and during that episode Vin feels a pain moving from her ear to her head.

Perhaps the mist Spirit doesn't hat Vin, but Elend.  Is it jealous perhaps?  Or does it hate him because it knows what he will cause her to do?  OR maybe it does hate Vin.  Who knows.  I found something interesting though.  The mist spirit has hateful eyes, and doesn't Alendi say something about Rashek's eyes always on him, watching and hating?

I'll continue with all this hemalurgy stuff on the hemalurgy thread...

[Elariel]

Wow, interesting. I'd never noticed that mist spirit had hateful eyes before. In fact, I'd always thought of it as a fairly benevolent force (yeah, it almost kills Elend, but it also saves him). This makes me reconsider. Perhaps the mist spirit is in some way the 'ghost' of Rashek/The Lord Ruler, trying to bring the world back to Preservation's side, the way it was before he died. (if we can even say TLR had a thing for Preservation, which is much debated) After all, it doesn't appear until after the Lord Ruler dies.

[Comatose]

I;m not so sure about that after reading chapter one's bump, perhaps it is just hateful because Vin is undoing it's work of trapping Ruin, and maybe the thing that Ruin is looking for is the mist spirit in order to get revenge.

Just a side not, in a post Ookla said he's not saying anything about WHO or what Preservation is.  Does that mean Preservation is  a who (and not the Seuss kind) meaning a character?  Don't respond to that ookla!

[Miyabi]

I very much like your idea of the Mist Spirit being the original HoA.

I think that they can both be a WHO, but they need a physical form first and in that manner they can control the physical world.

[Reaves]

i do like the idea of the Mist Spirit being the real HoA. I don't know about it being the original though...I guess you guys are saying its like the tormented spirit of the original still hanging on after all these millenia? It just doesn't strike me as something Sanderson would do.
Also it seems like a physical form would simply confine Ruin/Preservation more.

[Comatose]

Also it seems like a physical form would simply confine Ruin/Preservation more

.

Huh?  Explain.

[Reaves]

well Ruin can obviously already control the physical world to a certain extent, and it seems like limiting himself to a single person and place at one time would confine him rather than give him more power.

[Miyabi]

Quick lesson on the lower level plains. 

Lowest plain  - This is the level we reach when we have nightmares.  Existing in this level would be what Christians call 'Hell'.

Dream plain - This is where most dreams and subconscious thought takes place.

Astral plain - This and the physical level are parallel to each other.  This is a near mirror image of the physical world and is where cognitive thought takes place.  Living on this plain would be like being stuck in 'limbo'.  You can project your conscious mind into this plain while your body sleeps.  While here you can see the physical world but can't directly influence it.

Physical plain - Where we live from day to day.

Upper plain (1) - This is a euphoria where we are still attached to many physical things, but have reached a level of enlightenment that allows us to live happily with each other.  Similar to the Christian 'heaven'.

((There are I believe 4 more levels above this, but they aren't necessary for this discussion.))


My thought is that Ruin is stuck in the Astral Plain and can't DIRECTLY affect the physical plain and therefore needs a physical form to escape those confinements.

((Note:  This information is drawn from MANY religious and cultural views.  Although between some religions names and preciseness about what happens on each plain varies.  Brandon has been known to use religion a lot in his books.))

[Comatose]

Ok Reaves, I get what you are saying, I just don't get how this relates to the mist spirit, being or not being the hero.

[Reaves]

Just a side not, in a post Ookla said he's not saying anything about WHO or what Preservation is.  Does that mean Preservation is  a who (and not the Seuss kind) meaning a character? 

plus its kinda the topic of this thread  

[Andrew the Great]

Just a side not, in a post Ookla said he's not saying anything about WHO or what Preservation is.  Does that mean Preservation is  a who (and not the Seuss kind) meaning a character?  Don't respond to that ookla!

Emphasis mine. That pretty much makes the point I was trying for.

The problem with your logic, Miyabi, is that you are assuming that their world is exactly like ours, and they function in exactly the same way we do. Granted, this is likely, but we don't know for sure that they can dream. Besides, who's to say that Ruin and Preservation aren't in some random plain where they have a physical form but not the ability to do anything with it? I still think that Ruin and Preservation have no need of any physical form. But, just personal opinion. 

[Czanos]

Quick lesson on the lower level plains.  

Lowest plain  - This is the level we reach when we have nightmares.  Existing in this level would be what Christians call 'Hell'.

Dream plain - This is where most dreams and subconscious thought takes place.

Astral plain - This and the physical level are parallel to each other.  This is a near mirror image of the physical world and is where cognitive thought takes place.  Living on this plain would be like being stuck in 'limbo'.  You can project your conscious mind into this plain while your body sleeps.  While here you can see the physical world but can't directly influence it.

Physical plain - Where we live from day to day.

Upper plain (1) - This is a euphoria where we are still attached to many physical things, but have reached a level of enlightenment that allows us to live happily with each other.  Similar to the Christian 'heaven'.

((There are I believe 4 more levels above this, but they aren't necessary for this discussion.))


My thought is that Ruin is stuck in the Astral Plain and can't DIRECTLY affect the physical plain and therefore needs a physical form to escape those confinements.

((Note:  This information is drawn from MANY religious and cultural views.  Although between some religions names and preciseness about what happens on each plain varies.  Brandon has been known to use religion a lot in his books.))

Or it could be . . .

Physical Plain - Realm where we live on. During sleep random synapse firings in our brains trigger random events in our brain, which does it's darndest to connect them all leaving us with the sensation of dreaming as our brain continues to function. After we leave this plain, our bodies slowly decompose into dirt around us and our brain ceases to function. Ruin and Preservation are just hallucinations had by the characters, and a side effect of having two metal spikes driven through your head all Steel Inquisitors are schizophrenic. The Well of Ascension is a sinkhole of a thousand year's worth of the planet's magnetic forces, and someone who disrupts the flow can then direct it to wherever they wish.


Admittedly, that's a rather atheistic view, but it is by no means solid that Ruin is in any Astral plane of your choosing, or even that Astral planes exist in our worlds. (Though I am by no means atheistic, religion isn't fully understood yet.) I think I have to agree with Reaves, getting a body seems kind of like it would weaken him instead. Sure he could walk and talk and eat stuff, but no bodies I know of would allow him to omnisciently warp reality anywhere in the world. If it's a trade off between being a parasite to some host and being an almost God, I think I'd go with the almost God.

[Andrew the Great]

I love it when people say what I was trying to say.

[Miyabi]

Well I still believe you have to belong to the physical plain in order to affect it and THAT is the thing that Ruin still needs.