Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 43249 times)

darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #285 on: August 06, 2008, 03:33:51 PM »
There is a whole lot to your post, but I will focus on the well and mist spirit for a moment.  There are two pulses she feels, one from the mist spirit, and one from the well.  She recognizes the pulses from the mist spirit, but the well is a mystery to her at first.  The fact that the well's pulse gets stronger fits with Kwaan's writings about the Millenial Power.  As the well got stronger, so did the pulses.  It is interesting that she begins to feel it in book 1, if only for a moment.  It eventually becomes strong enough for her to feel it through her Hemalurgy earring, which she can enhance through Allomancy.  I am completely convinced that her ability to pierce copper clouds is due to the combined powers of Allomancy and Hemalurgy.  Alendi had piercings but no Allomancy, and he could feel the pulses as well.

Now for the mist spirit.  The mist spirit didn't want to keep Vin from the well, but rather wanted to keep her from giving away the power.  Therefore, It was trying to remove influences that would prevent her from keeping the power for herself.  If the mist spirit didn't want her to find the well, it could have simply killed her.  Instead, it tried to take her earring from her ear, tried twice to hurt Elend (and succeeded the second time) so she would use the power to heal him, and  it also tried to keep Elend from Luthadel so he wouldn't influence her decision.  Finally, I believe it was the mist spirit who was tearing the pages of the manuscript.  It wanted them to focus on that sentence.  Ruin had already changed it, and would have wanted them to move away from it, so they wouldn't question it.  The mist spirit is definitely linked to Preservation somehow, I just can't say to what degree.
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Reaves

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #286 on: August 06, 2008, 04:36:21 PM »
i am fairly sure the mist spirit was silvery-white; almost like the liquid metal in the Well...
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #287 on: August 06, 2008, 04:54:23 PM »
i am fairly sure the mist spirit was silvery-white; almost like the liquid metal in the Well...
Actually I'm almost positive it was described as the mists forming what appeared to be a body.  It was made of mists not a liquid metal color.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #288 on: August 06, 2008, 06:20:06 PM »
First one's a rather small point, I think . . .
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 402
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword . . . Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Preservation, Ruin, or Elend's near death instincts?

I vote not Ruin... And likely not Preservation either, though that is the more likely of the two. My guess is that it's actually something random he read over the years. He read a lot of stuff. Plus, it just makes sense.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 421
The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed--But they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.
Apparently Terris wasn't the only one of the fourteen lands which had prophecies about the Hero of Ages. Terris was probably just the place that had the most accurate/manipulated prophecies because of their close proximity to the Well of Ascension.
Fourteen? Where did fourteen come from?
Yes, where did fourteen come from? And I believe that since Terris is the origin of the prophecies, it's likely that they had the most manipulated because they were the ones who could say the prophecies were different and everyone else would think that their own prophecies were the ones that were wrong.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 423
[. . .] Sazed had four copies of the transcription. All were missing the same exact chunk.
[Tindwyl held up a sheet] one that had only half the transcription on it, ending near the middle of the page. A hole had been torn directly in the middle of the page. [. . .]
"How is this possible?" Tindwyl whispered. "How could someone know so much of our work--so much of us?"
"And yet," Sazed asked, "how can they know so little of our abilities? I have the entire transcription stored in my metamind. I can remember it right now."
So. Sazed and Tindwyl have several copies of the manuscript, they've been in the room with them the whole time, (probably) and the tears are all exactly the same. It's pretty obvious to me that the removal of these pieces of paper was done by one of the two entities, but which one? Preservation might have done it to lead Sazed and Tindwyl to second guess that line, to pay more attention to it, or maybe to have to go back and read Kwaan's plate again. Ruin could have done it so they had to tap into their metalminds and retrieve the quote. Keep in mind, they never found those pieces of paper which went missing initially. Sazed only found the corner of the page which had been ripped after he rewrote it from his metalmind.
This leads me to believe it was Ruin's doing. By destroying that sentence, Sazed had to tap his metalmind, where Ruin could change what he wished. I don't have any idea why it was torn later on, perhaps Preservation tore it and left the piece where Sazed would find it for some reason.

I like it. Either Ruin or Preservation makes sense, but I tend to think Ruin, as you said. Then, after that it was preservation. This is a nice catch. Although we still know that Ruin could have manipulated the manuscript and Preservation ripped them off. We know the Ruin can manipulate stuff written on paper because of the changes between the epigraphs and the rest of the steel plate manuscript translation thingy. So, I've actually changed my mind, Ruin just changed the manuscripts, and preservation ripped them. Then ruin changed the metal mind as well.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pgs 529-530
No. She knew the Lord Ruler had built the Inquisitors with a weakness: Remove a particular spike from their back, and they'd die. He had also built the kandra with a weakness. The koloss had to have a weakness, too. [. . .]
Cousins indeed. The Lord Ruler had built the koloss with a weakness--the same weakness as the kandra. He had given himself a way to keep them in check.
Okay, based off of this, I pull out a few assumptions. First off, The Lord Ruler probably created koloss and kandra with the power from the Well of Ascension. The fact that they're so similar in their weakness, and the fact that The Lord Ruler was the only Allomancer with enough power to control them (Without duralumin of course.) makes this pretty obvious to me. However, what's up with The Lord Ruler and Hemalurgy/Inquistors? If he made them with the power from the Well, I'd think he would have made them with the same weakness. Instead, they have a totally different (Hemalurgic?) weakness. But on the flop side, why do Inquisitor's have the weakness at all? Zane survives just fine with only one spike, and it's not the linchpin spike. It also went right through his heart. There's always another secret.

My guess is that Zane doesn't die because he only has one spike. I think all of the spikes must be connected. That's the only condition. If there's only one spike...Pretty Easy. If there's eleven, and you can pull one that severs the connection...easy built in weakness.

 
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 468
"Well, I've seen [the mist spirit] again," Vin said, "It's like a ghost, formed from the patterns in mist. I see it all the time, watching me, following me. And I hear those rhythms in my head--majestic, powerful thumpings, like Allomantic pulses. Only, I don't need bronze anymore to hear them.
Don't need bronze anymore eh? But, don't dismiss Allomancy entirely.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 527
I have to find the Well, [Vin] thought with determination, burning bronze, the thumpings--which she'd been ignoring during the battle--becoming loud to her ears.
It appears that bronze still makes the thumpings more prominent. And let's go way back to the roots here, with . . .
Quote from: Mistborn: The Final Empire pg 522
For a moment, she thought she felt something. Something
very strange—a slow pulsing, like a distant drum, unlike any
Allomantic rhythm she’d felt before. But it wasn’t coming
from Kelsier. It was distant . . . far away. She focused harder,
trying to pick out the direction it was coming from.
That one sure struck me as odd.
So what's up with the Allomancy link here? And if bronze lets Vin hear the pulsings, why can she later hear them without it? This is one of my favorites, and I'm pretty much clueless here. So, moving on . . .

That's true. Hmmm....

What if the well gives of both allomantic and hemalurgical pulses? That would be a very interesting concept. It doesn't make sense for the one pulse to be "heard" by both systems. I actually really like this idea. Now, the main question I guess is why would it do that?

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 165
"Kill him," God said. "He's really not that important."
God (Ruin) obviously knows quite a lot about Zane's surroundings. He occasionally says all these little random things about people, things that lead me to believe his senses are very acute.

I'm beginning to feel this way as well. It seems to me that Ruin and Preservation can likely see/hear everything. But you're right. Ruin knows a lot more than if he were just barely in Zane's mind.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 563
It had ended here, at a second, slightly smaller cavern that was clogged with a thick, dark smoke. It didn't seep out of the cavern, as it should have, but billowed and churned upon itself.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 144
It isn't a shadow
This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see--it's isn't really a shadow. It is blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike solid outline. It's insubstantial--wispy and formless. Like it's made out of black fog.
Or mist, perhaps.
See a resemblance there? This leads credence to my theory that that blackish smoke is what the Deepness had become right before The Lord Ruler ascended. It's dark and most people would find it terrifying and formless, and it's blackness might make them not associate it with something as simple as mist.

Okay, I think that's all for now. Maybe I'll post a few things in the Hemalurgy thread, but I don't have a whole lot there. Anyways, what are your guys thoughts on this stuff? Ruin and Preservation are complicated, that's for sure.

Hmmm. I hadn't noticed that before. I agree with Chaos, though, the smoke is likely very important. And I suppose it's entirely possible that it's the full deepness form of the mists.

Comments on my comments?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 06:30:21 PM by Andrew the Great »
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Qarlin

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #289 on: August 06, 2008, 06:28:45 PM »
It would be nice if Sazed found the prophecies from one of the other religions that hadn't been manipulated by Ruin. Especially if it's written in metal.

i am fairly sure the mist spirit was silvery-white; almost like the liquid metal in the Well...
Actually I'm almost positive it was described as the mists forming what appeared to be a body.  It was made of mists not a liquid metal color.

Yeah, the Mist Spirit doesn't have a color; it doesn't even have an outline. The only reason you can see it is because of the mists swirling around it. Could that be the mists swirling around it because it's using allomancy? And that's why it can disappear! It just stops using allomancy.

Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #290 on: August 06, 2008, 06:31:39 PM »
That...actually makes sense.
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #291 on: August 06, 2008, 07:02:57 PM »
OR, OK I'm going out on a limb here, the Mist Spirit is a manifestation created by someone.  Like in Alendi's case, maybe his use of Hemalurgy was causing the spirit to come about to tell him what he needed to do at the well in order to make things right.  Then again, Vin, with her Allomancy cause it to appear, it trying to tell her what to do.  Perhaps creating the Mist Spirit is a subconscious action created by those who are connected to the well in their time of need of guidance.  I mean, as far as we know so far, the Spirit disappeared after the incident at the well in both cases.
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #292 on: August 06, 2008, 07:36:57 PM »
Okay, responses to the comments of my post . . .

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 558
[The other Worldbringers] couldn't see how my studies, which focused on nature instead of religion, benefited the people of the fourteen lands
That's where the fourteen lands bit comes from. It was apparently one of the names of the world pre-Ascension.

As for the mist spirit/blackish fog issue, what I was trying to say there is that while Vin's mist spirit is made of mist, Alendi's was made of a blackish substance, possibly this same black fog we find below Kredik Shaw. This is why I supported the connection between the two, and on top of that Vin feels right in that fog, the same way she felt right going to the Well and giving up the power. I think this shows that Ruin has at least marginal control over her emotions right then. Alendi says he felt a calming sense of peace right before he went to the Well also.

The reason I still think it would have been Ruin who tore Sazed's manuscripts is because of the fact that I don't think he had a whole lot of power to affect the world when the original tearings were done. Ruin was sitting there in the Well, he knew Sazed and Tindwyl were getting close to that part of the manuscript, and if they saw it enough to commit it to regular memory, he was doomed. So he exerts himself and just destroys that sentence, and makes them rewrite all of the manuscripts with his new change. This way, he only has to do some minor destruction and alter a metalmind instead of focusing his efforts on changing the words of each individual page and making the handwriting fit and putting on ink smudges and all that fun stuff he can do later, when he has more power.

Andrew, your theory about all the spikes being connected makes sense, but there are a few small holes. First off, why is the linchpin spike the only one that kills when it is removed? Second off, what actually determines a "connection" between two of the spikes? I like the idea, but it has wrinkles.

And I like the idea of the mist spirit only being visible while it's using Allomancy. But if that's true, I think the mist spirit has some access to some really wacked out metals. Vin doesn't recognize the pulses coming from it as any metal she knows, so it must be burning something she doesn't know the pulse for. I guess it could be Aluminum or Duralumin, or it could be something weird like burning the mists or the Allomancy-giving metal.
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Reaves

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #293 on: August 06, 2008, 07:53:55 PM »
And I like the idea of the mist spirit only being visible while it's using Allomancy. But if that's true, I think the mist spirit has some access to some really wacked out metals. Vin doesn't recognize the pulses coming from it as any metal she knows, so it must be burning something she doesn't know the pulse for. I guess it could be Aluminum or Duralumin, or it could be something weird like burning the mists or the Allomancy-giving metal.

that is actually a very good idea. And perhaps when she hears the pulsing of the Well it is merely the fact that she can hear it "burning"? I forget, did the book say there was some type of resonance between the pulsing of the mist spirit and the Well?

also as far as the spikes go, i think the only reason pulling the linchpin out of an Inquisitor is because it is keeping it alive somehow. After all Vin has no negative side effects when she takes out her earring but the Inquisitors' lives are at "stake." (ahahaha!) They are so pierced and mutilated by the spikes, it is impossible to survive without them. Eyes, brain, heart, etc all are pierced by the spikes. Perhaps the linchpin's metal has healing properties when used by Hemalurgists.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #294 on: August 06, 2008, 08:14:41 PM »
And I like the idea of the mist spirit only being visible while it's using Allomancy. But if that's true, I think the mist spirit has some access to some really wacked out metals. Vin doesn't recognize the pulses coming from it as any metal she knows, so it must be burning something she doesn't know the pulse for. I guess it could be Aluminum or Duralumin, or it could be something weird like burning the mists or the Allomancy-giving metal.

that is actually a very good idea. And perhaps when she hears the pulsing of the Well it is merely the fact that she can hear it "burning"? I forget, did the book say there was some type of resonance between the pulsing of the mist spirit and the Well?

also as far as the spikes go, i think the only reason pulling the linchpin out of an Inquisitor is because it is keeping it alive somehow. After all Vin has no negative side effects when she takes out her earring but the Inquisitors' lives are at "stake." (ahahaha!) They are so pierced and mutilated by the spikes, it is impossible to survive without them. Eyes, brain, heart, etc all are pierced by the spikes. Perhaps the linchpin's metal has healing properties when used by Hemalurgists.

But then what about Zane? His spike goes through his heart, I'd think that would kill someone unless something was keeping them alive.
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Reaves

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #295 on: August 06, 2008, 08:18:54 PM »
But then what about Zane? His spike goes through his heart, I'd think that would kill someone unless something was keeping them alive.

Hm yah you got me there.

 Do we have any idea in what order the spikes go in first? For example if its the eyes first then its probably not spikes keeping them alive. If it is the linchpin or heart first then its at least possible for that spike to be keeping them alive.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 08:21:01 PM by Reaves »
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darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #296 on: August 06, 2008, 09:40:28 PM »
I don't think it matters which spike goes in first, just where they are located in the body.  I believe the metal becomes part of the body in some way, and enhances it.  The only way to kill an Inq is to behead it or take out the neck spike, which conveniently runs straight down between the shoulder blades (which is exactly where the spine is).  So, it would seem to me that removing that spike is just like beheading them, as it would create a gap between the head and the body.
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Reaves

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #297 on: August 06, 2008, 09:56:35 PM »
well i guess what i am saying is that:
1. having a steel spike driven through your head will kill you.
2. obviously inquisitors are not dead.
3. therefore they are being protected against the negative side effects of being repeatedly punctured by sharp objects. (again, obviously.)
4. the question is what is protecting them from this? is it one of the spikes that prevents them from dying? i guess what you are saying is that the sacrifice protects them.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #298 on: August 06, 2008, 11:53:58 PM »
well i guess what i am saying is that:
1. having a steel spike driven through your head will kill you.
2. obviously inquisitors are not dead.
3. therefore they are being protected against the negative side effects of being repeatedly punctured by sharp objects. (again, obviously.)
4. the question is what is protecting them from this? is it one of the spikes that prevents them from dying? i guess what you are saying is that the sacrifice protects them.
This goes in the Hemalurgy thread, BUT I think it's the actual Hemalurgy itself that keeps them from dying somehow, but the sacrifice is needed in order to create a Hemalurgist.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #299 on: August 07, 2008, 12:40:57 AM »
Czanos, my idea was that the spikes simply have to be touching. By my theory, if any spike were to become detached from the rest, the inquisitor would die, not just the lynchpin. Anyway, in the event that someone has proof that I'm wrong, I'll happily shift my belief to the lynchpin having healing properties. And we don't know what order the spikes go in. And if I recall, Zane's spike is in his chest, but I don't think we know for sure it's his heart. So maybe Zane's spike isn't in a position to kill him should it not be the one with healing properties.

And it would seem to me that it would be easier for Ruin to rearrange a few ink atoms than to rip a page off. But that's just personal opinion. It doesn't really make a difference. 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 12:42:38 AM by Andrew the Great »
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